RE: protection collar?

RE: protection collar? (Full Version)

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CrappyDom -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 7:55:59 AM)
The best protection for battered women is for them to to realize they have worth, that they deserve better. There are a variety of ways of teaching them this but it doesn't involve making them once again subordinate to another, most battered women's shelters use peer group counseling for that very reason.

twicehappy -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:05:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xLilithx lol.. Hiya, Scooter.. Actually, I'm absolutely telling the people that fit in that category to stay away from the BDSM candyshop.. If you're not emotionally/mentally capable of giving informed consent, then you shouldn't be playing. Hi xli, since we are doing intros, i am the collared slave of ScooterTrash and ShiftedJewel, pleased to argue with you, lol. Missed it one more time though, they are giving informed consent to be guided and taught. To have an older wiser ear to talk to and question. Of course they form their own opinions, just hopefully they experiment a little more carefully because they had someone to go to, to ask about the details. Or someone to tell them it really is okay to tell SirMasterOnYourKneesSlut to go to hell. How many times have you heard a story like this one "I got pregnant because everybody said it could not happen the first time"? If that young lady had an older person to talk to about sex before she had sex maybe that would not have happened. Same difference here.

ShiftedJewel -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:07:51 AM)
quote: My idea of a "collard of protection" is to hand someone the tools to learn for themselves, to teach them to be gloriously independent so their submission means something greater when they find someone worthy of bending their knee. It is sort of the teach a man to fish sort of thing. I'm not sure if you are aware of it or not, but Scooter and I feel the same way about this topic, so much so that we worked together with the girl I collared. Please note... I said in my other post... quote: We worked together for over two years, I pushed her to learn and she worked hard at it. She was a child in the lifestyle, she had to learn to walk, talk and think as an adult and truly needed someone she could trust to listen to her, explain things to her and be there for her when she fell. *The only time I made a direct decision on her part was to stop her from doing something that I knew would cause her a great deal of injury... or worse.* *And Lilith....* quote: Actually, I'm absolutely telling the people that fit in that category to stay away from the BDSM candyshop.. If you're not emotionally/mentally capable of giving informed consent, then you shouldn't be playing.. SHAME on any dom/me that plays with someone they know to be in that category. Since you have found yourself to be judge and jury here... tell you what... when you figure out just exactly how we, as in the global community of human beings, are supposed to FORCE someone to stay out of a lifestyle they are hell bent on getting into you just let me know, let us all know, ok? That will cut down considerably on the statistics of people hurt, maimed or killed in the name of BDSM... Until that time, until you or someone like you comes up with a solution there will be people like me and mine that do protect people from themselves and other predators, that are willing to put aside petty bullshit and take the time to put out a hand, to teach, direct and guide them safely through a maze of need to know information, and, with any luck at all, shield them from uninformed, holier then thou, self-righteous and arrogant know it alls. *Jewel* *PS... flame on folks... I'm done here..*

CrappyDom -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:11:06 AM)
Twice has me blocked because she can't handle anyone who doesn't agree with her but I have to respond to this post. quote: How many times have you heard a story like this one "I got pregnant because everybody said it could not happen the first time"? If that young lady had an older person to talk to about sex before she had sex maybe that would not have happened. Same difference here. Uh, you aren't advocating that that nice "older person" give free advice, that is the argument AGAINST collards of protection. The advice you advocate that little girl take comes with strings attached, sort of like allowing that "older person" to deflower her the "right way" so she can stay away from boys who would take advantage of her and might just use her for sex.

ScooterTrash -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:16:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Scooter, I am one of those people who actually have a rather vast (meaning in number and size of groups, leadership, events, parties, partners, etc.) real world experience with this stuff, at least compared to most on this board (John Warren being the one clear exception) and I can tell you I have seen more abuse of "collards of protection" than almost anything else other than Gor crap. My idea of a "collard of protection" is to hand someone the tools to learn for themselves, to teach them to be gloriously independent so their submission means something greater when they find someone worthy of bending their knee. It is sort of the teach a man to fish sort of thing. Your idea is to print up "don't rape me" shirts and you actually believe they will work. Nice people won't rape a girl wearing one but it sure as hell isn't going to stop a rapist. Actually, a collard of protection isn't even that good. It should read "I am already being raped and have only one hole so wait your turn" As for your experience, may you bask in your own glory...I couldn't care less, nor could you about mine. You have seen it abused just as I have...that does not mean it isn't plausible and can be done with good intentions..and outcomes. Because we have seen abuse it's all bad? Guess that rules out flogging with good intent huh. The teach a man to fish is pretty much dead on on what my analogy of what a collar of protection should serve as, so on one hand you seem to grasp the concept, while apparently you fail to accept that it's actually something you would do, under another title than Collar of Protection. As for what you seem to think my idea is and how dare you even include any implication of my nic and rape in the same post, stick it where the sun don't shine sonny because I said nothing that even comes close to what you apparently read. Oh..and by the way man of wisdom...collard is something like spinach, not something you wear.

valeca -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:17:34 AM)
Welcome, Lilith! Back to the topic at hand. It's still a contradiction this 'collar of protection'. If you're inexperienced enough, or unsure enough to feel you need guidance (nothing wrong with that), how do you suddenly have enough experience or surity to choose whom to accept a 'collar of protection' from? If you feel the individual is 'safe' enough and stable enough to accept their offer, you're already moving beyond the need for their 'protection' in the first place--making an informed decision about a person and/or circumstances as they relate to you. If you've made it far enough into BDSM to know the term 'collar of protection', decided your lifestyle preference, taken the steps to explore that part of yourself; to meet and converse with others involved in BDSM (o/l or off), all on your own merits, you already have it in you to continue...whether or not you know it is a different story.

CrappyDom -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:18:01 AM)
quote: *PS... flame on folks... I'm done here..* Oh, if only that were true! But to answer your question, this is one of the ways we do that. I have always strived to expose and run out assholes and idiots, regardless of which end of the lash they were on. I have told people they were not mature enough and were not ready to play with S&M. As for our thinking being alike, I am sorry you see it that way but it isn't. People that take submissives under the guise of "helping them" ARE the problem in the S&M community. You want to help, throw your collar into a fire, roll up your sleeves, and offer to create learning events they don't have to crawl to.

LaTigresse -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:21:23 AM)
Ya know, I personally do not see what the big deal is all about. It just sounds like one of those situations that if you don't agree with it then you quite simply do not participate! I don't see that anyone is getting hurt, or that anyone is getting a collar of any sort rammed over their head. No one is forcing any Dom/Domina to play with or consider having a submissive/slave with a protection collar. What is the big flipping deal??? If someone wants one and someone wants to give them one, isn't that between them? Hell, if you want someone to pry your mouth open and shit down your throat I am SOOOOOOOO not gonna get the thrill from either side of that coin but, hey, if its your thing......by all means have a party! ( just don't ask me to clean up the mess or even watch )

CrappyDom -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:26:18 AM)
Society calls it rape when an adult has sex with a child, even if that child will be considered an adult the next day. We all know of situations where an older person slept with a younger one and it all turned out hunky dory. However, we despise it as a practice and rightly so. I firmly believe that collards of protection stink just as bad as horny old men taking advantage of young women and yes, I do think it is a form of unconsensual rape.

slaverosebeauty -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:27:34 AM)
"collar of protection'?? A collar is a collar. If one is collared then they are 'protected' by the one that made the collaring. I have heard of and know some tops that will offer to 'protect' bottoms until they can find a top of their own, but I have enver heard of a 'collar of protection.' A collar is protecting, well, its suppose to be.

mistoferin -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:36:05 AM)
This is a fast reply. Not in response to anyone in particular. I take issue with the labels of "protection collar" and "protector" because I think that those labels offer a false sense of security. We are all fallible human beings and none of us can be there for another at every moment and none of us have been blessed with the insight to always know what is the right decision or who may ultimately turn out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. I do not take issue with experienced people reaching out to those less experienced and offering sage advice, friendship and a sounding board to discuss lifestyle issues or people in their consideration with. THAT I encourage and participate in. Even as experienced people we can still make mistakes. I, for one, do not wish to have the responsibility of another person's demise resting squarely on the pivot point of my approval....or my disapproval for that matter. As adults, we need to gather all the information that we can and make informed decisions from that point....for ourselves. To briefly relate an example, and one I have shared here before in much greater detail, a few years ago I met someone who appeared to be a very good match for me. We had a relationship that went on for a good number of months and I thought that we were progressing well. This gentleman became very involved in my community. Not one person in that community, including myself, had the foresight to know what was lying just around the bend. Some of the Dominants who I have been friends with for years became quite closely involved with this man. These were not newbies, these were Dominants with MANY years of active experience in the lifestyle and the community. Everyone was very impressed with this man. The comments were all along the lines of "erin, you have found yourself a keeper" and "We are so happy for you...a fine, fine man indeed!". Well that relationship ended with me in a hospital needing emergency medical treatment and although I won't go into it, had I chosen to press the issue, very serious charges could have been levelled. My reason behind not taking it to the law was that the gentleman had overstated his experience levels to fit in and impress and did not do what he did with any intention of harm. But harm is one of those funny things....it can happen when you least intend it to, no matter what your intentions are. I am so very thankful that what occurred did not occur to someone who was brand new and could not sort out what had indeed occurred....and I am also very thankful that none of my very experienced Dominant friends had voiced their ecstatically approving opinions to me under the label of "protector", for they would have then had to look in my eyes after the fact and see the product of their failure of foresight.

xLilithx -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:40:36 AM)
LOL.. I'm not missing your point, TH.. I'm disagreeing with it. If a woman needs someone to tell her that it's okay to tell Mr OnYourKneesSlut to go to hell.. what on earth is she doing here? Maybe if half of the ridiculous protocols and the 'rank' theory weren't perpetuated as rabidly, then she would assume (as in any other place in life) that it was okay for her to stand up against her being mistreated. Comparing a submissive woman to a 16 yr old child is totally off the mark... I am not a 16 yr old child.. I'm a grown woman and have access to numerous resources, people and a better-developed frame of reference.. One that I constantly develop through self-education, discussion, debate (like this :) ) and the mistakes that I make and learn from. To turn the analogy around though, maybe if the 16 year old hadn't been listening to her 'more experienced' peers with the blind trusting awe of a teenage girl, then maybe she would have found out for herself and not relied on misinformation?

twicehappy -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 8:55:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xLilithx LOL.. I'm not missing your point, TH.. I'm disagreeing with it. Comparing a submissive woman to a 16 yr old child is totally off the mark... I am not a 16 yr old child.. I'm a grown woman and have access to numerous resources, people and a better-developed frame of reference.. To turn the analogy around though, maybe if the 16 year old hadn't been listening to her 'more experienced' peers with the blind trusting awe of a teenage girl, then maybe she would have found out for herself and not relied on misinformation? Where did i say sixteen year old? The young lady i was refering to was 32 year old extremely shy and sheltered Catholic cousin of my previous Master. And it is not about age, it is about experience levels. And maybe if she had someone knowledgeable to go to it would not have happened, saving her much grief. I wish she had come to me. Once the family found out and gave her support she wished she had come to any of us. I am glad you are so confident in yourself. Now try compassion for those who are not as confident or need a shoulder to lean on. It is very nice to shout from the treetops, everybody should be like me, but the truth is (thankfully) people are different, with different needs. And again this is not so different than what you state you search for in your profile, whether you care to admit it or not.

xLilithx -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 9:08:51 AM)
[quote ShiftedJewel] Since you have found yourself to be judge and jury here... tell you what... when you figure out just exactly how we, as in the global community of human beings, are supposed to FORCE someone to stay out of a lifestyle they are hell bent on getting into you just let me know, let us all know, ok? That will cut down considerably on the statistics of people hurt, maimed or killed in the name of BDSM... Until that time, until you or someone like you comes up with a solution there will be people like me and mine that do protect people from themselves and other predators, that are willing to put aside petty bullshit and take the time to put out a hand, to teach, direct and guide them safely through a maze of need to know information, and, with any luck at all, shield them from uninformed, holier then thou, self-righteous and arrogant know it alls. *Jewel* *PS... flame on folks... I'm done here..* [/quote] If you're saying that you would 'protectively collar' someone who wasn't capable of consenting to someone else - for their own good, of course - then yes, I would put you in the same predatory category as anyone else that would 'collar' a sub for their own purposes... Because if they are incapable of consenting to someone else, they are incapable of consenting to your collar as well...Or are you above consent? While you're printing out 'self-righteous know-it-all' stickers for me, print off a few pretty ones for yourself too. lol I may not have all the solutions to problems older than me.. but even I know that you don't fix a crime by committing it yourself. Maybe if dom/mes were publically scorned for playing in any way with someone believed incapable of making their own decisions and giving their own consent it would go a long way towards making it less frequent? There's more I'd type.. but you're done here... so what do you care?

MHOO314 -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 9:17:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subshine2005 has anyone ever been hurt so by the "Collar Of Protection." Odd, I have offered protection--but never with a collar--and that is as a Mentor--Mentors teach and refrain from emotional and sexual involvement---so I am not clear what it is you are "under"--I think there needs to be some communication with the Dom as to what tjhis means---and for all submissives, if you don't know what is happening anytime a Dominant offers something----ASK, never assume.

twicehappy -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 9:29:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel Since you have found yourself to be judge and jury here... tell you what... when you figure out just exactly how we, as in the global community of human beings, are supposed to FORCE someone to stay out of a lifestyle they are hell bent on getting into you just let me know, let us all know, ok? That will cut down considerably on the statistics of people hurt, maimed or killed in the name of BDSM... Until that time, until you or someone like you comes up with a solution there will be people like me and mine that do protect people from themselves and other predators, that are willing to put aside petty bullshit and take the time to put out a hand, to teach, direct and guide them safely through a maze of need to know information, and, with any luck at all, shield them from uninformed, holier then thou, self-righteous and arrogant know it alls. quote: ORIGINAL: xLilithx If you're saying that you would 'protectively collar' someone who wasn't capable of consenting to someone else - for their own good, of course - then yes, I would put you in the same predatory category as anyone else that would 'collar' a sub for their own purposes... Because if they are incapable of consenting to someone else, they are incapable of consenting to your collar as well...Or are you above consent? Where did ShiftedJewel write she would protectively collar someone who was not capable of consenting to someone else. Obviously you are making an assumption here. Anyone in a protective collar has asked to be in that collar to help them gain the skills required to protect themselves from the predators you speak of. quote: ORIGINAL: xLilithx I may not have all the solutions to problems older than me.. but even I know that you don't fix a crime by committing it yourself. As to your implication that Jewel is a predator, you are treading ground best left untrod. Know your facts. The particular girl in question was never would never be touched by any member of this house. She was regarded as more of an adopted child. She herself to this day if uncollared would leap at the chance to be here in Jewel's collar. This will never happen as all here would consider that to be an abuse of a privelge and trust being violated most heinously. quote: ORIGINAL: xLilithx Maybe if dom/mes were publically scorned for playing in any way with someone believed incapable of making their own decisions and giving their own consent it would go a long way towards making it less frequent? quote: ORIGINAL:ShiftedJewel Until that time, until you or someone like you comes up with a solution there will be people like me and mine that do protect people from themselves and other predators, that are willing to put aside petty bullshit and take the time to put out a hand, to teach, direct and guide them safely through a maze of need to know information

xLilithx -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 9:30:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy quote: ORIGINAL: xLilithx LOL.. I'm not missing your point, TH.. I'm disagreeing with it. Comparing a submissive woman to a 16 yr old child is totally off the mark... I am not a 16 yr old child.. I'm a grown woman and have access to numerous resources, people and a better-developed frame of reference.. To turn the analogy around though, maybe if the 16 year old hadn't been listening to her 'more experienced' peers with the blind trusting awe of a teenage girl, then maybe she would have found out for herself and not relied on misinformation? Where did i say sixteen year old? The young lady i was refering to was 32 year old extremely shy and sheltered Catholic cousin of my previous Master. And it is not about age, it is about experience levels. And maybe if she had someone knowledgeable to go to it would not have happened, saving her much grief. I wish she had come to me. Once the family found out and gave her support she wished she had come to any of us. I am glad you are so confident in yourself. Now try compassion for those who are not as confident or need a shoulder to lean on. It is very nice to shout from the treetops, everybody should be like me, but the truth is (thankfully) people are different, with different needs. And again this is not so different than what you state you search for in your profile, whether you care to admit it or not. I assumed 16 yr old because of the 'young' part..My bad.. I wouldn't have thought anyone beyond a teenager would have believed that "it can't happen on the first time" garbage. But from my point of view, the situation you speak of confirms my point.. - "Extremely shy and sheltered catholic cousin..." Maybe if she hadn't been sheltered and 'protected' by those well-meaning relatives or whomever it was that was doing the 'sheltering' (Again, I'm assuming relatives or people that she looked up to that mentored her) that thought they were doing what was best for her by their standards.. .. well, maybe she would have learnt before she got to 32 about reproductive fact? I'm kinda offended by the "shouting from the treetops 'Be like me!" part though.. that seems to me to be a personal criticism and nothing to do with the debate at hand. My opinion is no more telling people "Be like me!" than anyone elses. Of course I believe that I am right... LOL.. So do you and so does everyone else here that has commented. .. In fact, I absolutely hope that people don't 'be like me!' .. coz I'm one of a kind.. even with my blatant superiority. (for those that couldn't tell, that was said tongue-in-cheek) I do have compassion for those that aren't as confident in themselves or their abilities.. believe it or not.. because I know that the only way that you can build confidence like that is to do for yourself and know that you can. What I seek in my profile is so far removed from the submission that seems to be the norm here that it would be a whole 'nother thread entirely.. lol .. So much so that I don't think I will fit in among the discussions I've seen.. I'm not the slightest bit interested in the conversations about commonly-accepted roleplay protocols and such that seem to dominate the board here... But lets see how many people I can inadvertantly alienate and offend with my opinions before I go, eh? lol.. What's the count at now? 2? 3?

ginawithaB -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 9:40:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Ya know, I personally do not see what the big deal is all about. It just sounds like one of those situations that if you don't agree with it then you quite simply do not participate! I don't see that anyone is getting hurt, or that anyone is getting a collar of any sort rammed over their head. No one is forcing any Dom/Domina to play with or consider having a submissive/slave with a protection collar. What is the big flipping deal??? If someone wants one and someone wants to give them one, isn't that between them? Hell, if you want someone to pry your mouth open and shit down your throat I am SOOOOOOOO not gonna get the thrill from either side of that coin but, hey, if its your thing......by all means have a party! ( just don't ask me to clean up the mess or even watch ) Good grief to this thread! and Amen, LaTigresse...I am soooooo with you on this one!

xLilithx -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 9:46:16 AM)
"The particular girl in question.." Just to quantify, I have been speaking in general, theoretical terms.. not to comment on a specific situation that I have no knowledge of. .I don't know any of you.. You would hardly expect me to preface my opinions with "Except for those dominants present whom you know are safe and well-intentioned because obviously, I don't mean them..It's okay when they do it.." .. As for Jewel saying that she would collar somebody incapable of consenting - that was the whole point of my last few posts.. lol.. That a collar of protection for someone who does not feel capable of consenting to submit under their own faculties, or IS not capable of submitting under their own faculties by the opinion of the person doing the collaring, renders their consent for the collar of protection just as invalid. As regards the predator term.. That's actually a point worth discussing.. What is different about a sub submitting to a 'protective collar' than submitting to a general one? What makes the intended dom a predator that a sub needs protecting against, but not the 'protector'? If she is ill-informed enough to not be able to recognise a predator for herself, then what's to say that she will be able to pick one if he comes dressed in a protector-shaped suit?

Vicarious -> RE: protection collar? (5/16/2006 9:56:16 AM)
I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want, unless it is illegal or unconsensual. Young and old alike as adults we are responsible to choose our path and make our own mistakes. If someone who is 20 hooks up with someone who is 40 (no matter what they label it) it doesn't make the 40 year old a pedophile. For that matter even if the 40 year old was a pedophile I would much rather they expressed it legally with an adult of consenting age then prey upon some innocent child. There are some real predators out there that you should be worried about. Why puzzle over someone using their age and experience to gain intimacy with someone (an adult) who is half their age? I am not going to comment one way or another on the legitimacy of a training and protection collar. But I will say that the legitimacy of any structured relationship is dependant solely upon the individuals and their agreement. Ultimately if what someone else is doing makes you uncomfortable you have the right to feel distaste towards it (I'll never understand fecaphilia for intstance) but that does not give you the right to judge. You can only ever truly understand your self (and if your lucky) perhaps a few others. The human experience is vast and unique and I would hate to live in a world where everyone walked and talked and thought the same way.

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