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The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 1:09:26 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigBadVoodooDadd
My thought is if there is actually a way to better one's chances sort of speak of having a successful D/s relationship if the ONLY criteria is one's level of submission.


I’m carrying this over into a new thread.

It inspires a subject I wanted to bring up for a while now but was thinking of a good angle to do it and BBVD gave me that angle. In fact, I’m sure aspects of this have been discussed in the past in some way shape or form… but here goes.

When we meet in this BDSM realm, a great deal of us would like to form a meaningful relationship (or maintain one if we already in one) with someone who compliments us.

We get together, we talk about limits, about degree of submission/dominance, of sadisism/masochism, of need to control or ownership/to be controlled or owned, of degree of kink, of degree of “outness”, etc.

But when do we talk about the other relationship stuff that is so very important and at the core of human interaction?

A local sub boy the other day asked me my limits. I told him basically the standard “no-no”s (which I will not list as they go against point 4.6 of the collarme TOS) as well as needle play (as I don’t like needles and they do nothing for me except give me the heebies), excrements and blood. I proceeded to add: “Other hard limits include emotional blackmail, passive aggressiveness, lack of respect and tardiness. A soft limit would be marriage and/or monogamy”.

He chuckled at first. I asked him why he chuckled and he said that it was because he never experienced anyone putting non-BDSM stuff in his or her limits before unless they were joking around. I assured him I was not joking. He bit his tongue for a moment, and then said “but it makes sense! If you are looking to develop something with someone, even in the BDSM realm, you have to state limits that go beyond play”.

The boy got it.

I’m not trying to imply that we don’t go through these processes of setting limits and looking for compatibility. I’m simply wondering why too often I see people put the play criteria first, then the other stuff. Shouldn’t it be all part & parcel?

Why should I care how submissive one is? If he/she has the desire to submit and I have the desire to dominate and we can find common ground, we will grow together. What is most important in my mind is can we grow together in other areas too.

- LA

<edited for an incorrect tongue biting statement>
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I bit his tongue for a moment, ...



< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 10/11/2004 2:23:05 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove
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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 1:30:10 PM   
theroebabe


Posts: 3155
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline 		The way i look at it, i am looking for a partner who shares my interests in life as well as the lifestyle.

So yes to me thats important to share. And i think i do blend the two in my personals profile. i want someone who wants to know me as a person before wondering what i can do for them (which by the way is a lot lolol ok ok i am biased).

_____________________________

Roe

People always ask me why I do these things . . .
It's because I can!

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 1:38:50 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		A lot of people are only looking for a play partner so the "other limits" don't apply, all they care about is how they are going to play or scene. But in a 24/7 or other long term type relationship i think they are very important and should probably be mentioned before the play limits.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 1:44:28 PM   
Suleiman


Posts: 1127
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline 		I would tend to suspect that, since the "vanilla" realm does not tend to actually set limits per se, we tend to have a major blind spot where the "other limits" are concerned. Such limits are of course every bit as important, but we all get the idea of SSC drummed into our heads, so we spend time thinking about "If I were asked, would I allow someone to poke holes in my flesh with a needle?" We just don't worry enough about whether "If I got stood up for a date, would I be offended?"

I suspect that people take their attitudes on such subjects as a given, but of course we all have differing hard and soft limits about what we like in our relationships. I am not as inclined to take being "stood up" personally than a lot of people I know. It just dosen't bother me. It's maybe a soft limit, as in don't make a habit of it, but really, once I know that a friend of mine is a flake, I just compensate accordingly and take that into my calculations when they ask me to meet them somewhere.

Unfortunately we tend to take such considerations as part and parcel of the "getting to know you" phase of dating. Guys won't verbally express such limits, hard or soft, for fear of not getting laid (sorry, fellas, but we all know it's true. We resist the "little man" to varying degrees of success, but it still forms a hub around which our personal universes revolve). Women, on the other hand, won't express such limits for fear of being called a female dog (or some similar offensive epithet) and likewise scaring off a potential mate. Thus, we all enter our relationships by performing a strange, passive-aggressive butt-sniffing contest, trying to find out if the other person is right for us, because it simply never occurs to us to lay our cards on the table and just say what it is we want.

Personally, I am of the opinion that safewords should be in effect in any relationship. There are times, talking to my family, I just want to scream "Yellow" when they get back to certian tired and emotionally loaded topics of conversation. The missus and I have actually acknowledged safewords during arguments, and we will back off and stop the fight. I find it saves a lot of hurt feelings and recriminations later on to point out that something unnesisarily hurtful or offensive was said in the heat of the moment. It also gives both parties a chance to cool off and actually work out the problem, rather than simply screaming at each other in order to prove who is "right" and who is "wrong".

By the same token, hard and soft limits should be applied, but I'm not sure I've ever taken the time to seriously consider them (well, okay, a few - I set the bar pretty high and managed to find my wife any way). I'm going to have to take some time to think about this. Thank you, dear, for reminding me that I can always work on my self-awareness.

~S

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 1:46:22 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		I understand what you are saying proud, but in my opinion, my logic still applies.

I have submissives that I'll take as a lover and want to build more with. In this case, it is my boy.

I also have submissives that I take on for training. I'm not a ProDomme so they aren't clients. They are play partners that I have a D/s or S&M, often non-sexual exchange with.

In both cases, I will not interact with anyone who breaks my play hard limits or my other hard limits such as "emotional blackmail, passive aggressiveness, lack of respect and tardiness".

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 1:57:31 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Suleiman
I would tend to suspect that, since the "vanilla" realm does not tend to actually set limits per se, we tend to have a major blind spot where the "other limits" are concerned.


And yet every self-help book tells people to set limits and boundaries. In the work place, we have processes and procedures to help us set limits and boundaries. We have speed limits. We have "supermarket express lane item" limits. We have "maximum amount of people on this elevator" limits.

Why isn't this catching on?

I think it has a lot to do with what you said about the "butt-sniffing". I always put all my cards on the table instead of holding them close to my chest. If someone doesn't like what I'm dealing, I figure at some point that will come out and better sooner then later.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Suleiman
Personally, I am of the opinion that safewords should be in effect in any relationship. There are times, talking to my family, I just want to scream "Yellow" when they get back to certian tired and emotionally loaded topics of conversation.


Oh I do this. I do this in my family, with friends… I’ve even done this in my work place. I call a time out, explain to the person I’m having a disagreement with that I feel my limits being pushed or I fear I will push theirs (whatever the case may be) and ask if I can reconvene when a little dust has settled and emotions have calmed down. Usually people tend to back off. When they don’t I simply walk away or ask them to leave.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 3:43:43 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		Well, all i can say is i'm happy to see this point being raised. i for one feel it's a very big hole in the profiles for many reasons unique to my own situation but i must add i think others have similar circumstances. What i'm speaking of here is the logistics of establishing the "vanilla" side of the relationship.

All too often, the contacts i've had seem to focus very quickly (if not immediately) on the D/s aspects. Some even insist on the communication being structured according to D/s protocol. i want to say as incredible as it may seem..."This gets in the way!" Time after time, i'm left feeling "You can't get there from here."

Obviously, none of this applies if the person in question is seeking a play partner. But if a relationship is sought, then it seems only natural that the focus would be on who each of us are as people in the day to day living of our lives. Let's face it, very few people are aiming at living "out" 24/7 and the vanilla world does make its demands on us all. Even if the goal is 24/7, it would seem logical to begin with where we are now and then move in that direction.

There's a few profiles here stating they are looking to own a slave. i'm fine with that and would love the opportunity to develop such a relationship but it won't happen overnight. There's simply too much that needs to be digested, worked through, tried out, and so on. If there's a distance involved, this means moving and finding a job, deciding what to do with belongings, property if owned, and a host of other details. This would apply to any looking for less than 24/7 as well.

All in all, i think this is something that should be glaringly obvious to everyone and it makes me wonder in a major way why it's not a topic of discussion on the boards all the time.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 4:06:47 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

Why isn't this catching on?

I think it has a lot to do with what you said about the "butt-sniffing". I always put all my cards on the table instead of holding them close to my chest. If someone doesn't like what I'm dealing, I figure at some point that will come out and better sooner then later.

Just my guess, but I think it has to do with the alternatives available. In the general population you end up sniffing some butt because the other person has plenty of alternatives to explore if they decide they don't like you. Here we're dealing with a sliver of the population so alternatives are limited. So we can put our cards on the table with less risk the potential partner will walk, and we can make conscious decision about what we'll have to deal with.

Furthermore, there is the power imbalance. Angelika describing her "no nos" is essentially saying "Here's what I won't tolerate from you, like it or lump it, but I know you llike it." and it is an expression of the power that her boy is wants. Without the power imbalance, that could instead lead to a battle of wills.

Of course,, these are just my guesses on the matter. Might just be a bunch of crap too.


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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 5:06:41 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

Personally, I am of the opinion that safewords should be in effect in any relationship.


I like that idea. Maybe i will start yelling "yellow" when Hubby is berating me for the way i drive the golf cart or for chunking so many shots.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to Suleiman)
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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 5:48:57 PM   
RogueDom


Posts: 21
Joined: 10/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: theroebabe

The way i look at it, i am looking for a partner who shares my interests in life as well as the lifestyle.

So yes to me thats important to share. And i think i do blend the two in my personals profile. i want someone who wants to know me as a person before wondering what i can do for them
quote:


[ (which by the way is a lot lolol ok ok i am biased).]
quote:


This comment makes me think you musy be really fun to talk to in person lol

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 5:53:46 PM   
RogueDom


Posts: 21
Joined: 10/8/2004
Status: offline 		I certianly see the good side of this but just have always been someone who would rather discuss a lot of these types of things in private. Besides this my feelings and tastes sometimes change...Mike

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 6:53:36 PM   
theroebabe


Posts: 3155
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline 		Yes RogueDom I have been told i am quite amusing at times. My first experience in the LS was with a mistress and i had her laughing a lot lol. She brought me in to be a mini mistress with male subs and she had a ball!

I like being silly when its appropriate it makes life more fun! and thanks!


_____________________________

Roe

People always ask me why I do these things . . .
It's because I can!

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 7:17:27 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
All too often, the contacts i've had seem to focus very quickly (if not immediately) on the D/s aspects. Some even insist on the communication being structured according to D/s protocol. i want to say as incredible as it may seem..."This gets in the way!" Time after time, i'm left feeling "You can't get there from here."


Yes. It does. It gets in the way of a meaningful dialogue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert
Furthermore, there is the power imbalance. Angelika describing her "no nos" is essentially saying "Here's what I won't tolerate from you, like it or lump it, but I know you llike it." and it is an expression of the power that her boy is wants. Without the power imbalance, that could instead lead to a battle of wills.


Not necessarily. As anthrosub pointed out, there are negotiations to be had. I want the boy or girl to set their limits first and foremost. I often get theirs out before I reveal mine because I don't want them telling me what it is they think I want to hear. When I meet a submissive, sure there is going to be a natural power dynamic because it extends from our personalities. But that is why it is extra important for me to get the submissive telling me their needs, desires and fears. Only then can I make informed choices.

I don't ever want to find myself with a partner that just nods yes to please me. I don’t want anyone ever settling for me. That would be hell for me. I want someone who's desire to please me comes from a place much deeper and less insecure. I want submission to be offered up to me more often then me having to take it (though I do get a sadistic pleasure from just snatching it now and then <weg>).

I have found this dynamic with my current boy and I’m hopeful that we can make this work. He has told me straight up what his hard and soft limits are, BDSM and all the others. We even negotiated some. He never thought he could do the poly thing but he decided he might like to try. This is a no bullshit boy! I respect him a great deal for it. It isn’t a constant guessing game with him.

Does it take more energy from me? No. Because I don’t need to impose dominance on him. He knows I’m dominant, that is why he is with me. He doesn’t need me prancing around chanting "Respect my authority!" (gotta laugh at those Eric Cartman Doms). It isn’t a battle of wills because this is what we both want. We have so many things in common on so many levels, because we discussed these other limits way before we even discussed the BDSM limits. Now that we got the logistical stuff out of the way, he surrenders to me completely and it is beautiful.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 8:18:08 PM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

have always been someone who would rather discuss a lot of these types of things in private.


I agree with this statement. I have written a profile that gives an outline of what I want (at least I think so). I do not list interests and limits as I think those should be discussed in private. Before that discussion takes place, I wish to engage in interaction of a non-BDSM flavor. If we cannot dtermine compatibility in a "vanilla" interaction, there is no point in going forward. If someone whom I contact or who contacts me wants to go straight to limits of play and sex, I know they are probably not for me. Probably... It is more important that they can deal with the fact that I have children and that I like to go to museums and would rather read than do chores. The fact the I will not tolerate deceit in any form for any reason is more important that the fact that I think spanking and floggings are heavenly.

I do find that when I insist that initial communication and meetings be of a vanilla variety, often times, the prospective dom goes away or I am accused of topping form the bottom. When I first began this search, that used to upset me, now I think of it as a favor - I will not waste his time, nor he mine. No harm, no foul. We all want what we want. I may desire to please and serve and do any number of other things, but I do not wish that with a stranger. Taking time to get to know someone, what makes them tick, their likes and dislikes, hobbies, pet peeves, quirks, being able to talk and laugh with them, and they with me, has to be first.

newflowers


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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 8:52:32 PM   
magiqual


Posts: 27
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

We get together, we talk about limits, about degree of submission/dominance, of sadisism/masochism, of need to control or ownership/to be controlled or owned, of degree of kink, of degree of “outness”, etc.

But when do we talk about the other relationship stuff that is so very important and at the core of human interaction?


To be honest, I might flirt by sharing the kinky stuff, but the real relationship building lies in all the "other" stuff -- including (and most especially) spirituality. I pay a lot of attention to how a potential partner relates to other people (and how she's treated exes); without fail, this has been the best indicator of how the relationship will go (and how it will end) for years.



< Message edited by magiqual -- 10/11/2004 8:56:25 PM >

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/11/2004 9:47:51 PM   
UtahGoddess


Posts: 205
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Utah
Status: offline

I think too often BDSM D/s relationships begin at sexual negotiation. It would seem off the wall at a cocktail party to walk up to someone and say "Hi, my name is _______, and I enjoy clamps, exhibitionism, crossdressing and bondage."(or any variation therein).....yet it seems acceptable within our BDSM community.

Personally I want to know more about someone before I know all that. If I am seeking a PARTNER I want to know all about their interests and passions outside the lifestyle. From there I will query other elements as the relationship evolves. If I don't like them (they are pessimistic, fatalistic or carry no responsibility, etc) we aren't going to get far enough to explore sexual chemistry anyway. If we do "click" on a basically human level, I have found fetishes and play seem to evolve naturally and come into alignment.

Maybe I am odd, but I do place limits/boundaries on all my interpersonal relationships. One thing that is very important to me is my privacy. At the onset of any relationship.... be it with submissives or just with potential friends....I get agreement on the following points:

1) I am a very private person, despite my public participation. What goes on in my house, stays in my house.

2) Keep my confidence and I will keep yours.

3) If you have an upset or disagreement with me....I ask that you confront me directly. If we cannot resolve it alone, we can bring in mediation.

4) Unles there is an emergency, never show up uninvited or without notice.

I'm sure there are more, but that is all I can recall off the top of my head. Does anyone else have similar "rules", or am I the only one?

Ms Sandi

_____________________________

"The Masochist desires to experience stronger sensations, but desires that it should be inflicted with Love. The Sadist desires to inflict stronger sensations, but desires that it should be felt as Love" Havelock Ellis The Project Gutenberg

(in reply to magiqual)
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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/12/2004 1:37:08 AM   
Suleiman


Posts: 1127
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline 		Those are very good rules, Ms Sandy, and I have known many people with similar ones. I'm still being introspective and trying to figure out how best to articulate my 'nilla limits. It dosen't help that I have other subculture interests (that is to say interests which involve me in other subcultures) which are very important to me, but which bother a great many people - then again, my perv interests freak out a number of folks in those communities too, so I guess I'm looking for the best of five or six worlds... wait a minute... that's why I got hitched! I found someone who shares three of my passions and is cool with the other few... geez... what am I doing here anyway, trying to figure out what my relationship limits are... oh yeah, that's right. I enjoy narcisistic intorspection cloaked as self awareness, and I enjoy a good debate, especially one where I don't have to censor some part of my life. Hmmm... okay, I know I've got a point here somewhere, but I think it's been buried under the one at the top of my skull. Oh well.

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to UtahGoddess)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/12/2004 5:33:14 AM   
cynnacent1


Posts: 340
Joined: 6/25/2004
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		During the time when i was looking my profile listed more than just the basic BDSM type limits. It stated that i prefere older to younger men, more experienced to less experienced, those who are NOT married, and only those who are quite local to me. A good sense of humor and a generous portion of intelligence was not listed yet was definitely something i placed a high priority upon as well in reading the many emails i received in reply to my profile, as well as a need to feel some amount of initial chemistry, and a heap of respect, respectability. One of the reasons i listed such requirements is simply because i had no real D/s or BDSM experience in that i always knew that cyber play was not going to satify what i was seeking, therefore never played with D/s or BDSM online and as a result had no experience at all. Having no experience, i could not list specific likes or dislikes, or soft limits as i did not know what they were for me. i was only able to list a few hard limits and state that i was open minded to learning what my limits were/are.

Upon meeting the one i now know as Master, i immediately knew that He was the one who fit all of the requirements listed as well as a few not listed or even thought about when i wrote the profile. W/we have a ton in common within as well as outside of BDSM.

< Message edited by cynnacent1 -- 10/12/2004 5:41:16 AM >

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/12/2004 8:08:43 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtahGoddess
Maybe I am odd, but I do place limits/boundaries on all my interpersonal relationships. One thing that is very important to me is my privacy. At the onset of any relationship.... be it with submissives or just with potential friends....I get agreement on the following points:

1) I am a very private person, despite my public participation. What goes on in my house, stays in my house.

2) Keep my confidence and I will keep yours.

3) If you have an upset or disagreement with me....I ask that you confront me directly. If we cannot resolve it alone, we can bring in mediation.

4) Unles there is an emergency, never show up uninvited or without notice.

I'm sure there are more, but that is all I can recall off the top of my head. Does anyone else have similar "rules", or am I the only one?


Sandi,

You are not odd at all. I do similar things. Your points 1 & 2 are very much things I make sure are understood right away.

Often times however, I do it reactively (I end up setting the limit afterwards because I didn’t think someone would do such a thing) rather then proactively which is something I need to change.

One of the rules that I have is a time limit for bringing things up. If I did something that bugged you today, I don’t want you bringing it up in an argument in January! It is irrelevant and out of context and usually I don’t even remember the moment. Speak up or get over it.

I’m also not fond of broad sweeping statements such as: “You always do that!”. Give me an example. If it is “always”, then why am I only hearing about it now? Why is it starting to bug you only now? I’m not perfect. I definitely have the potential to do something to upset someone because I’m human. But when someone pulls the “You always” card on me it really hits a nerve.

When someone’s repeated behaviour begins to irritate me, my approach is something along the lines of: “I’ve been noticing something that has occurred a few times and I want to address the issue before it become a problem. Can we talk about this now?”.

Amazing how communication flows when people take the time to talk things out calmly and rationally.

So yes, Limits, good :) Drama, bad :(

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The "Other" Limits - 10/12/2004 4:53:30 PM   
Nvernilla


Posts: 303
Joined: 10/1/2004
Status: offline 		You are very right holding back like that is dishonest and childish. I also have the same feeling about a " game " a lot of my past lovers have played called " guess why I'm mad " it is dishonest and clearly states * I don't to work this out * Hope that was'nt straying too far from the thread...Mike

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