RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 9:41:26 AM

kdsub

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I am not talking about rights...I'm talking about protection of the 1 in 4 people who become addicted to heroin. Do you have the right to drive 100 mph in front of your neighborhood school. Rights must be balanced with the safety of others…even if the rights of the 3 in 4 are curtailed to protect the 1.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/10/2011 9:43:44 AM >

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 9:56:54 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The main effect pure heroin has is to kill the user: most overdoses are caused by junkies getting a purer fix (ie one with more heroin in it) than they're used to.

You are mistaken. Pure heroin will not kill you.
The pdr shows no ld50 for heroin or morphine.
People die from overdoses of strychnine and other adulterants in heroin and not the heroin itself.

The two main causes of overdoses are people who've been cleaned up going straight back to their previous dosage once the physical dependence has been abolished, and people getting a stronger dose of heroin they were expecting because they've got a less adulterated mix from their dealer than they're used to. The stuff used to cut heroin does occasionally kill people, but that isn't an overdose.

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:04:12 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The two main causes of overdoses...

A conscientious search of the United States medical literature throughout recent decades has failed to turn up a single scientific paper reporting that heroin overdose, as established by these or any other reasonable methods of determining overdose [see link], is in fact a cause of death among American heroin addicts. The evidence that addicts have been dying by the hundreds of heroin overdose is simply nonexistent.

Reference: The Consumers Union Report on Licit and Illicit Drugs, 1972

K.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 223

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:14:39 PM

Moonhead

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Not wishing to sound dismissive, but is that article still seen as the final word on this after nearly forty years?
There's a lot of evidence for polydrug abuse (and in particular mixing heroin and booze) killing a lot of people, but the whole overdose thing has never been completely ruled out.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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Post #: 224

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:17:06 PM

thompsonx

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The pdr is the physician's desk reference. It lists all of the drugs in the pharmacopia. If a drug can be lethal it is noted and the dosage required to kill 50 out of 100 people is refered to as ld 50.
There is no ld 50 for heroin or morphine.
That you think that people die from heroin overdoses is not relevant. That the medical evidence shows that they do not is relevant.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 225

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:25:09 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

There's a lot of evidence for polydrug abuse (and in particular mixing heroin and booze) killing a lot of people...

Quite so. However, death resulting from mixing heroin and alcohol or barbiturates is manifestly not "a heroin overdose."

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/10/2011 12:27:39 PM >

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 226

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:28:54 PM

Moonhead

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There's a lethal level of both (heroin is generally cited as 200 to 500 mg). If it's absent from the PDR, that's more likely due to heroin not being used medically than anything else.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 227

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:30:21 PM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The pdr is the physician's desk reference. It lists all of the drugs in the pharmacopia. If a drug can be lethal it is noted and the dosage required to kill 50 out of 100 people is refered to as ld 50.
There is no ld 50 for heroin or morphine.
That you think that people die from heroin overdoses is not relevant. That the medical evidence shows that they do not is relevant.

Quite interesting and also according to My own research (literature, not physical), quite true. Government has been lying to us again?

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Post #: 228

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:31:50 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

There's a lot of evidence for polydrug abuse (and in particular mixing heroin and booze) killing a lot of people...

Quite so. However, death resulting from mixing heroin and alcohol or barbiturates is manifestly not "a heroin overdose."

K.

Fair point. If somebody's killed by a synergistic effect or the results of a cross tolerance, then it isn't purely down to a surfeit of heroin. There's still a few cases on record, though.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Post #: 229

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:33:52 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The pdr is the physician's desk reference. It lists all of the drugs in the pharmacopia. If a drug can be lethal it is noted and the dosage required to kill 50 out of 100 people is refered to as ld 50.
There is no ld 50 for heroin or morphine.
That you think that people die from heroin overdoses is not relevant. That the medical evidence shows that they do not is relevant.

Quite interesting and also according to My own research (literature, not physical), quite true. Government has been lying to us again?

If there's no lethal dose, it seems extraordinary that heroin is illegal while booze (which kills more people than all the deaths from illegal drugs and prescription drugs put together most years) isn't...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 230

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:34:46 PM

Hillwilliam

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Isn't it though moon.

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 231

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:35:49 PM

shannie

Posts: 200
Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

What do you think is wrong with what I am proposing? Again…no incarceration...fines...and mandatory treatment with a mental health evaluation?

For mine, you are trying to solve the wrong problem. The problem as I see it is not the consumption of drugs per se.

The biggest problems are the social effects of prohibiting drugs - grossly inflated markets creating crime, gangsterism, black markets, adverse health outcomes, deaths, incarceration, squandering of public money on a hopeless cause, waste of public resources, bringing the law into disrepute, public corruption even low scale wars.

It doesn't matter which health initiative is adopted, as long as drugs remain illegal (and therefore expensive and subject to punitive policing), all of the above adverse effects of prohibition can be expected to remain with us to one extent or another.

Wow, well said.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 232

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:40:49 PM

Kirata

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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

There's a lethal level of both (heroin is generally cited as 200 to 500 mg). If it's absent from the PDR, that's more likely due to heroin not being used medically than anything else.

Ahem... Do you have even the remotest fucking idea of how much heroin you're talking about?

"The figures that have been reported show wide variation." This ignorance no doubt stems from the rarity of morphine or heroin overdose deaths. The amounts of morphine or heroin needed to kill a nonaddict have been variously estimated at 120 milligrams (oral), 200 milligrams, 250 milligrams, and 350 milligrams --- though it has also been noted that nonaddicts have survived much larger doses.

The best experimental evidence comes from Drs. Lawrence Kolb and A. G. Du Mez of the United States Public Health Service; in 1931 they demonstrated that it takes seven or eight milligrams of heroin per kilogram of body weight, injected directly into a vein, to kill unaddicted monkeys. On this basis, it would take 500 milligrams or more (50 New York City bags full, administered in a single injection) to kill an unaddicted human adult.

Shooting up 20 to 50 bags of heroin one right after the other is just soooooo not gonna happen.

K.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 233

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:46:35 PM

Moonhead

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Of course it isn't very likely anybody's going to do that much in one sitting, but it's still a lethal overdose.

(There's been cases of suicides and idiots killing themselves with much smaller doses than that, though. Haven't there been a few suggestions that there might be some sort of genetic predisposition to being killed by more manageable doses of heroin for some users?)

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Post #: 234

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 12:53:19 PM

Kirata

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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

(There's been cases of suicides and idiots killing themselves with much smaller doses than that, though. Haven't there been a few suggestions that there might be some sort of genetic predisposition to being killed by more manageable doses of heroin for some users?)

Have there been? No citation, no cigar.

But assuming genetic predisposition, dontcha think they'd figure that out?

Or are we supposing they shot up, say, 10 to 20 bags just for the fuck of it the first time they tried the stuff?

If so, I have two words for them: Darwin Award

K.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 235

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 1:13:37 PM

Moonhead

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How about this?
No quantities are given, but it sounds like the second attempt worked. Possibly an interaction if the poor sod was already on some sort of downer, but I have no idea what they prescribe for brain damage cases.
There's the most famous case of an alleged overdose, which befell the Fonz's retarded younger brother out of the Sex Pistols. At least two other people got into the same bag of smack as he indulged in to put himself away, but neither of them took half as much of the stuff as he did. If somebody chokes on their vomit while lying on their back and too zonked out to move, can the fact that a dose of heroin has made them lose their lunch in the first place and removed their interest in rolling over sufficient to make that a lethal dose?

As for the genetic thing, a search for "genetic basis heroin overdose" turns up quite a bit. Medical papers, mostly, and the usual clutter of unrelated stuff. This is one of the less impenetrable medical papers. It emphasises a genetic basis for addiction (which is a very fashionable idea at present) but also touches on the other.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 236

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 1:15:33 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

There's a lethal level of both (heroin is generally cited as 200 to 500 mg). If it's absent from the PDR, that's more likely due to heroin not being used medically than anything else.

I have to ask, why are you so wedded to your position when it has been demonstrated to be faulty?
I am not trying to tell you that heroin is good for you. I am simply trying to tell you what it is and what it is not.
Dr.Andrew Weil (sp) is quite the drug advocate. He has testified in court numerous times concerning the effects of drugs on the human body. His book "from chocolate to morphine" is an entertaining and informitive read. In it he makes quite clear what the negative effects of heroin are but he also stresses the point that it is not a lethal drug.
Now if you choose to take the position that if one took five pounds of heroin at one time they would die then this is no longer a discussion but simply foolish chatter.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 237

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 1:23:37 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

How about this? No quantities are given...

Heh. Sorry. No quantity, no cigar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

If somebody chokes on their vomit while lying on their back and too zonked out to move, can the fact that a dose of heroin has made them lose their lunch in the first place and removed their interest in rolling over sufficient to make that a lethal dose?

No. The cause of death wasn't a heroin overdose. You can call it misjudgment or an accident, but not an overdose. Using drugs is like anything else. You're supposed to know what the fuck you're doing. A real idiot can find a way to kill himself with anything.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/10/2011 1:27:14 PM >

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 238

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 1:31:29 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
HERE is some light reading...yea i know to you it is propaganda...

Wait wait.. That link is from the US Drug Enforcement Agency. Myself and any other sane person understands that they lie to us regularly and without remorse over long, long periods of time. In fact, the US government has a long tradition of making up wild shit to suit their purposes when it comes to science in general and drug policy in particular. It's not so much that I think anything they write is propaganda. What I do think is that anything they write lacks credibility because they have impeached their own credibility so regularly, so thoroughly, and so consistently that the phrase "chronic liars" doesn't even come close.

Secondly, I got about half way into the first "fact" and realized they were "smoking crack". Seriously? Really? 2/3's of teens think their schools are drug free? In what alternate universe? I haven't talked to a single teen in the last 20 years that doesn't "have friends or know someone who..."

Oh, and wait... less than 5% of the US population uses illegal drugs of any kind???? ROTFLMAO. I especially like that one seeing as it is directly refuted only a few paragraphs down (7%). My own unscientific analysis... counting off-label usage of prescription drugs (which is still illegal) would be something more like 20-40%. That's OK though. Let's just take a drag off their hookah and go with it. So what we're saying is that less than 1:20 people use illegal drugs. That means that it would be difficult to, say, find a pot supplier, right?

It's not that I don't think there are a lot of pros and cons to decriminalization. But the idea that the US government, especially the DEA could be thought of as a credible source on any topic much less this one is kind of amazing.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 239

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/10/2011 1:39:29 PM

leadership527

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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
If there's no lethal dose, it seems extraordinary that heroin is illegal while booze (which kills more people than all the deaths from illegal drugs and prescription drugs put together most years) isn't...

Why would that seem extraordinary? Surely it is obvious to you that drug policy is created from a moral stance more than a practical one. We are not seeking to save people by throwing them in jail. We are not seeking to save money by funding the entire cost of doing so. We are seeking to punish them because they are bad! The current drug laws have much more to do with whether a substance is psychoactive than whether it's harmful.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 240

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