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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 7:20:03 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

perhaps I am too close to the problem to be objective but too late to take them back now.



If you recognize that you are not being objective then why are you posting?

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 7:23:15 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes... I believe people who are demanding free access to any drug as a personal right are acting in a selfish manner... I stand by it.

People who think free access would help reduce crime and alleviate the suffering are in my opinion mistaken but not selfish.

Butch



By free access do you mean the same free access we have to buy apples and oranges or do you mean free access like we have free access to the air we breath or the sunlight that shines on the earth?

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 7:43:03 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Most users take drugs (including cocaine and heroin) without getting addicted or suffering the problems associated with addiction.


Mind providing a source for this? What I am finding states the rate is over 50%. Maybe I am reading mine wrong so I would like to see yours.
One needs to understand that continuous use will lead to physical dependence for the opioids. I have not researched this wrt cocaine, which is psychologically addictive. Casual use very seldom leads to dependence, from what I have previously read.

There is a difference between true addiction, dependence, and pseudo-addiction.



Since tweak doesnt know, what is the difference and where does someone draw the line?


1998 Australian research reports 2.2% of the population have tried heroin, with 1% using it within the last 12 months which equates to slightly over half a million nationally and about 200,000 using it within the last 12 months.*

Most figures for addicts I've seen put the figure at about 60,00 nationally, with the highest I've seen at 100,000. This suggests a ratio of approx between 5:1 and 8:1. These figures should be taken as indicative only. It is virtually impossible to get an accurate figure for the total number of causal heroin users.

It should also be noted that it usually takes at least 5 days continuous use to develop a heroin dependency. Also relevant is that many 'addicts' exhibit binge type usage patterns ie they use continuously for short periods of time with varying often lengthy time periods between binges.

* http://www.med.unsw.edu.au/ndarcweb.nsf/resources/TR_22/$file/TR.089.pdf



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/7/2011 7:51:34 AM >

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 7:57:33 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And this is what I am seeing...

According to the 2003 National Survey on Drug
Use and Health, which
may actually underestimate illicit
opiate (heroin)
use, an estimated
3.7 million
people had used
heroin at some
time in their
lives, and over
119,000 of them
reported using it
within the month
preceding the
survey. An estimated 314,000
Americans used
heroin in the past year, and the
group that represented the highest number of those users were
26 or older. The survey reported
that, from 1995 through 2002, the
annual number of new heroin
users ranged from 121,000 to
164,000. During this period, most
new users were age 18 or older
(on average, 75 percent) and
most were male. In 2003, 57.4
percent of past year heroin users
were classified with dependence
on or abuse of heroin, and an
estimated 281,000 persons
received treatment for heroin
abuse.

http://www.nida.nih.gov/PDF/RRHeroin.pdf

Sorry about the spacing, its how it came from the source.

Im not arguing your numbers. Just trying to figure out why this one says 57%.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 8:15:03 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		The number of dependent users (281,000) is taken as a proportion of the total number who have used heroin (3.700 000) to give a ratio of the number of addicts compared to the number of people who have used heroin. At first glance your figures give a ratio of c 13:1 (mental arithmetic!)

quote:

In 2003, 57.4 percent of past year heroin users were classified with dependence on or abuse of heroin


I'm not clear what is meant by "abuse of heroin" but it seems included in the 57.4% figure. Could it refer to regular but not dependent use?


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/7/2011 8:24:22 AM >

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 8:20:47 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Should we jail gamblers ? Should we jail tobacco smokers and just because of their addictions ? We do not as we have allowed them as legal activities.


I agree with you...I've said all along I believe in zero tolerance for drug use but no incarceration. I believe mandatory treatment is the answer. Many disagree with me and feel mandatory treatment goes against their rights.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 8:27:53 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Thats where I am getting lost at too. What were the past year numbers? How do you differentiate between abuse and dependency... or is there a difference?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 8:31:18 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Heroin addicts in the Netherlands get government-supplied Heroin, and are productive members of society. Take away the stigma, the criminalization, the lack of stable dosing with an impure product, and Heroin becomes safer than aspirin.


This kind of thinking makes no sense to me. So you believe it ok for your tax money to provide a never ending supply of drugs to addicts? For what purpose?

What I would like to see is that same addict in a mandatory treatment program with a mental illness evaluation and help with living expenses and employment opportunities. Now which do you think over time will cost less and produce the best results?

And even I...a none medical professional know that long term use of heroin, even pure is dangerous.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 8:33:03 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

? How do you differentiate between abuse and dependency... or is there a difference?


I'm not sure how you would differentiate. Your source ought to define such things somewhere I would imagine. We can guess but that's not very good is it?

I would see a huge difference between "abuse" and "dependency" wouldn't you? The absence of dependency would imply there are no addiction issues for a start. My suspicion is that "abuse" refers to regular but not dependent use (eg weekend/party use only) but I wouldn't dare suggest that's anything more than a guess.

PS: It's 1.30 am here and I'm off to bed in a minute. g'night all!

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/7/2011 8:35:27 AM >

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 8:41:33 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		According to the current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV), substance dependence is defined as:

When an individual persists in use of alcohol or other drugs despite problems related to use of the substance, substance dependence may be diagnosed. Compulsive and repetitive use may result in tolerance to the effect of the drug and withdrawal symptoms when use is reduced or stopped. This, along with Substance Abuse are considered Substance Use Disorders....[1]

Substance dependence can be diagnosed with physiological dependence, evidence of tolerance or withdrawal, or without physiological dependence.

DSM-IV-TR defines substance abuse as:[22]

A. A maladaptive pattern of substance use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by one (or more) of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:
Recurrent substance use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home (e.g., repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions or expulsions from school; neglect of children or household)
Recurrent substance use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (e.g., driving an automobile or operating a machine when impaired by substance use)
Recurrent substance-related legal problems (e.g., arrests for substance-related disorderly conduct)
Continued substance use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the substance (e.g., arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication, physical fights)
B. The symptoms have never met the criteria for Substance Dependence for this class of substance.

Dont know if that helps.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 8:49:29 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		If the DSM definition is adopted, we can see why the figures for "abuse and dependence" would be so much greater than what most of us would understand as addiction - it's so much broader. Most people would understand heroin addiction as a physical and/or psychological dependence I think. It's worth remembering that the DSM, while commonly used, is not without controversy itself.

It seems to me that the main point is pretty clear - that most heroin users do not develop a dependency on heroin. I hope we can agree on that.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/7/2011 8:54:14 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 10:41:06 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		True, less than a quarter who try it are dependent. Thats still a lot though.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 6:03:50 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Yes. In excess of three quarters of those who try heroin don't get addicted.

Add to that: (i) it's virtually impossible to grow up nowadays without learning about heroin's capacity to create dependency; and (ii) it takes 5 days continuous use to develop a dependency ie one has to work hard to acquire a dependency. It seems difficult to avoid concluding that one doesn't acquire a heroin habit unknowingly or accidentally. And that, therefore, there must be some other factors/circumstances present.

Depression is one such factor/circumstance commonly mentioned. Unresolved abuse/trauma in childhood is another. Yet these factors/circumstances rarely get a mention in discussions such as these.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/7/2011 6:17:45 PM >

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 11:02:26 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Heroin addicts in the Netherlands get government-supplied Heroin, and are productive members of society. Take away the stigma, the criminalization, the lack of stable dosing with an impure product, and Heroin becomes safer than aspirin.


This kind of thinking makes no sense to me. So you believe it ok for your tax money to provide a never ending supply of drugs to addicts? For what purpose?
Uh, gee, I don't know. So people don't spread HIV and Hep-C and whatever else with dirty needles? To reduce crime? To reduce taxpayer burden by keeping people working instead of in prison? To reduce hospital usage by providing pure substances instead of contaminated? To reduce hospital usage by eliminating endocarditis and "cotton sickness"?

quote:

What I would like to see is that same addict in a mandatory treatment program with a mental illness evaluation and help with living expenses and employment opportunities. Now which do you think over time will cost less and produce the best results?
Why do you think addicts are mentally ill? Why do you think Portugal's approach is less cost effective? Did you even read the link, or were you sitting in a corner pulling your putz?

quote:

And even I...a none medical professional know that long term use of heroin, even pure is dangerous.

Butch
Yeah? You know this how? What proof do you have? I mean, actual citations, not "common knowledge" or whatever is rattling around in your head.

Are you even capable of thinking things through, instead of being spoon-fed shit which you reject because facts clash with what you "think" is true?


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/8/2011 7:05:57 AM   
Edwynn


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~FR~


According to the current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV)


I find it a bit ironic and amusing that even if knowing the IV in the above designation is meant as the Roman numeral IV (4), considering the subject matter it's easily read as the medical term IV (intravenous).





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/8/2011 7:11:26 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/8/2011 7:55:36 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		From what I could find crime did not reduce in Portugal except in the administration time of booking users...in fact it increased somewhat in the drug trade… Remember drugs are still illegal there.

Sweden with its zero tolerance and drug treatment program has better results...it's HIV rate is 1/5 of Portugal's

HIV in Portugal is rising and is back up to the 2003 rate. The percentage of those living with HIV is .5 percent. In the US with no treatment…with no free needles…. with no free drugs… is .6 Percent. This is well within statistical error and does NOT show a large difference in HIV prevention over time. But I have always been an advocate for free needles at clinics and this should be part of any drug plan in the US.

You have not been reading the links I provided or what I have been proposing if you had you would see where I am advocating a system something of a combination of Sweden’s and Portugal’s.

I am proposing NO jail-time… and mandatory treatment… how is that different than the 3 person panel in Portugal that decides the mandatory treatment?

Yes I do know the long term use of pure heroin is dangerous… I will not waste time with you if you try to say this is not true…it is too easy to run a search on the subject...People are never stable on heroin...it requires ever increasing dosage for maintenance... it physically changes the brain causing problems with cognitive function and concentration...and causes increased respiratory distress and infections in long term users...I could go on but is this not enough?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/8/2011 8:38:51 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/8/2011 10:18:22 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

the long term use of pure heroin is dangerous… People are never stable on heroin...it requires ever increasing dosage for maintenance... it physically changes the brain causing problems with cognitive function and concentration...and causes increased respiratory distress and infections in long term users...I could go on but is this not enough?

Most of the medical consequences relate to adulteration and method of administration.

Medical consequences of chronic heroin injection use include scarred and/or collapsed veins, bacterial infections of the blood vessels and heart valves, abscesses (boils) and other soft-tissue infections, and liver or kidney disease. Lung complications (including various types of pneumonia and tuberculosis) may result from the poor health condition of the abuser as well as from heroin's depressing effects on respiration. Many of the additives in street heroin may include substances that do not readily dissolve and result in clogging the blood vessels that lead to the lungs, liver, kidneys, or brain. This can cause infection or even death of small patches of cells in vital organs. Immune reactions to these or other contaminants can cause arthritis or other rheumatologic problems... sharing of injection equipment or fluids can lead to some of the most severe consequences of heroin abuse - infections with hepatitis B and C, HIV, and a host of other bloodborne viruses, which drug abusers can then pass on to their sexual partners and children.

Reference: NIH National Institute on Drug Abuse

For a safer sport it would appear best to forego the spike and snort only reliably pure smack.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/8/2011 10:38:28 AM >

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/8/2011 10:47:02 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Seems that this would be something conservatives would be against unanimously


Seems to me it's something the neo-cons should be all over, in as much as the administration is against it. We both KNOW that if drugs are ever legal and a source of private revenue. They'll skip the weed and invest their bucks in cocaine and heroin. If Oil has taught us anything, it's that they like a captive audience.


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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/8/2011 11:50:12 AM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
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quote:

Medical consequences of chronic heroin injection use include scarred and/or collapsed veins, bacterial infections of the blood vessels and heart valves, abscesses (boils) and other soft-tissue infections, and liver or kidney disease. Lung complications (including various types of pneumonia and tuberculosis) may result from the poor health


Oh sure, talk about these so-called issues all you want ... But let the boys at Beatrice and RJ Renolds decide what's good for ya. And bear in mind, with this next round of Free Market Commerce, we're gonna have the insightful folks from Wall Street who gave you such gifts as DERIVATIVES.
   In fact, I'd like to see two new bond issues. One that bets against the consumer getting off the product, and another betting they don't OD.
   There are oodles of cash to be made, the shit wouldn't even be coming out with such hoopla if someone wasn't looking at drugs as a potential market (it would be just like ALL the other kookie 'drug pieces' such as 'hemp products'  that come out <not weed my friend, the stupid shit>... here for a day and gone).
  GOP will deal GHB... it's just gonna take a few more years in which there will be a great handwashing of the "war on drugs".
The war is over, the yale boys have been offered their cut.


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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/8/2011 12:36:16 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Yes that is why I only included the effects of pure heroin...The escalating needs...pure heroin... the brain changes...pure heroin.... the constant depressing effects on respiration...pure heroin.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 200
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