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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 2:04:10 PM

kdsub

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But tweakabelle...no country I know of allows the production of illegal drugs without prosecution…that would be suicide. Do you suggest we allow all drugs to be produced, sold, and consumed with no penalties or restrictions?

And yes the death penalty does work…if not a deterrent then at least it stops that particular dealer.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/5/2011 2:05:03 PM >

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 2:04:24 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
Freebase coke is smoked. Crack is similar to freebase

Very similar indeed. Those are two different terms for exactly the same drug. Freebase is to crack as erotica is to pornography: the only difference between the two is the social class of the consumers.

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Post #: 122

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 4:32:13 PM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But tweakabelle...no country I know of allows the production of illegal drugs without prosecution…that would be suicide. Do you suggest we allow all drugs to be produced, sold, and consumed with no penalties or restrictions?

And yes the death penalty does work…if not a deterrent then at least it stops that particular dealer.

Butch

No I am not suggesting a free market in all and any drugs at all.

I am arguing that prohibition has been a dismal failure and it's time we looked at alternatives. These might vary according to local conditions and to the drug concerned.

Marijuana can be grown just about anywhere. It's relatively harmless. It's very popular so I see little point in retaining any criminal sanctions on its production or use. Why not treat it the same as say tobacco? Or alcohol? Both of which are far more dangerous.

For coca and opium poppies, it makes a lot of sense to intervene at the point of production. Coca and opium producing areas are limited by climate and other factors. Buying up the total production of coca and poppy producing regions would cost a tiny fraction of the cost of the current 'War on Drugs'. It would put most of the supply into a regulated system, eliminating the gangsters and ensuring producers get fairer prices. Delivery to consumers might best be tailored to suit local conditions.

Currently, opium poppies are grown legally in Turkey and Tasmania (Australia) with virtually zero diversion to the black market. (A couple of decades ago, Turkey was a major heroin producer/supplier. Now illegal heroin production there is virtually zero.) So there are successful models tested and available.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/5/2011 4:54:06 PM >

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Post #: 123

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 5:36:52 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
Freebase coke is smoked. Crack is similar to freebase

Very similar indeed. Those are two different terms for exactly the same drug. Freebase is to crack as erotica is to pornography: the only difference between the two is the social class of the consumers.

Yeah very similar indeed but not quite 100% da same. Apparently freebase cocaine is very dangerous to manufacture. Crack uses a combination of round 1/3 baking soda which is safer. Freebase gives a faster more intense quicker hit cause smoke hits them ole receptors all speedy. I heard a while back the soda also intensifies da hit more but not sure bout that.

Interestin' parallel. Crack is da Monkeys to freebase's Beatles... fries to spicy wedges... da Spice Girls to All Saints...

quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage
Have you considered that your argument is based on the collectivist belief that you do not own your own body? That's a pandora's box, and I guaranfuckingtee it won't stop with the eradication of french fries. Prohibition is a counter-productive fraud.

I haven't considered that idea but some might say we aren't just individuals, we are also members of a society and owe a good deal to it. Sounds orwellian but I'm not sayin' individual liberties shouldn't be respected but we have a certain duty of care to a greater collective whole. If our freedoms clash with societal rules it ain't necessarily so dat freedoms come first.

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Post #: 124

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 6:00:41 PM

Kirata

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~ FR ~

Let's review why we have drug laws in the first place...

OPIUM:
The first American anti-drug law was an 1875 San Francisco ordinance which outlawed the smoking of opium in opium dens. It was passed because of the fears that Chinese men were luring white women to their "ruin" in opium dens. Cultural studies of the time showed that opium dens occupied a place in Chinese culture roughly comparable to the position that saloons occupied in white culture. That is, most patrons went to them on the weekends, partook of the intoxicants and went back to their work the following Monday, with no apparent interference in their work. There were opium addicts, of course, but, on balance, the addiction problem didn't seem to be any worse than addiction problems with alcohol. The usage patterns in general seemed to be comparable to the usage patterns of alcohol. The real source of the prejudice against opium smoking was the racial prejudice against the Chinese.

COCAINE:
One article in the New York Times even went so far as to say that cocaine made blacks shoot better, that it would "increase, rather than interfere with good marksmanship... The record of the 'cocaine n****r' near Asheville, who dropped five men dead in their tracks, using only one cartridge for each, offers evidence that is sufficiently convincing." A Literary Digest article claimed that "most of the attacks upon white women of the South are the direct result of the cocaine-crazed Negro brain." When Coca-Cola removed cocaine from their drink, it was not out of concern for their customers' health. It was to please their Southern market, which "feared blacks getting cocaine in any form." The racism went beyond blacks. When "every Jew peddler in the South carries the stuff," inciting blacks to rape white women, what choice did we have but prohibition?

MARIJUANA
Marijuana prohibition started in the Southwest, where "the dirty greasers grow", as sung by soldiers under General Pershing. A Texas police captain summed up the problem: under marijuana, Mexicans became "very violent, especially when they become angry and will attack an officer even if a gun is drawn on him. They seem to have no fear, I have also noted that under the influence of this weed they have enormous strength and that it will take several men to handle one man while under ordinary circumstances one man could handle him with ease." ...The very name marihuana was introduced at this time to make it sound Mexican -- some interests didn't even realize that marihuana and hemp were the same plant.

Reference: Schaffer Library of Drug Policy :: The History of the Drug Laws

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/5/2011 6:10:36 PM >

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Post #: 125

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 7:01:17 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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~FR~

I read an article on addictiveness of each drug. On a scale of 1 to 6 (1 being very severe, 6 being mild) for reinforcement (addictiveness), Cocaine was top with a rating of one, Heroin is rated at two, Alcohol is three, cigarettes are four, hash is five and caffeine rated six, although I think caffeine got a higher rating on another measure that was otherwise da same. Opium and morphine are supposed to be more addictive than Heroin but wasn't measured. I read a pretty shocking story on how opium is running rampage in Afghanistan which sorta reminded me of da affect spirits had on indians who had no resistance to it http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32317823/ns/health-addictions/t/opium-addiction-ravages-afghan-families/

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Post #: 126

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 7:01:22 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

Everyone knows about the potential cancer causing properties of inhaling it,

Could you quantify that potential cancer risk for us...as in how many ounces of marijuana a day one might have to smoke?

but moreso than that, I think the greatest drawback to marijuanna is what I call the "Rip Van Winkle" effect. Many people who smoke frequently

Many as in 10? 100? 1000?10,000?100,000.

have big dreams (perhaps even more so because of the enhanced creative/visualization properties) but often fail to produce real and measurable strides toward their dreams, so one day they wake up and realize 10 years have passed and they don't have nearly as much to show for it as the peers around them who didn't smoke or didn't smoke regularly.

Then there is the person who did smoke regularly and did not buy into the consumerists, money grubbing mentality and when the housing buble burst and the economy tanked and tens of millions lost their homes or jobs or both...the regular pot smoker had paid for his modest home and 20 year old car had no credit card debt and when he lost his job he still had his home and his vegitable garden and his assets he had not squandered on bling. Now all of his peers who did not smoke have no home ,no car, no bank account etc.

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Post #: 127

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 7:05:27 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

but I reckon psychotropic might sound just as scary as narcotic.

Another word for you to look up and learn about.

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Post #: 128

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 7:15:26 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

but I reckon psychotropic might sound just as scary as narcotic.

Another word for you to look up and learn about.

LOL TX, I was right bout the differences of cocaine and crack and you my friend were wrong! You would do well to educate yourself a bit more before throwin' accusations of ignorance at others.

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Post #: 129

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 7:17:29 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But tweakabelle...no country I know of allows the production of illegal drugs without prosecution…that would be suicide.

Suicide???care to explane just what that means?
I have heard that it is legal in amsterdam.
http://www.amsterdam.info/drugs/
Do you suggest we allow all drugs to be produced, sold, and consumed with no penalties or restrictions?

Absolutely...Don't you believe in personal responsibility? Are you in favor of the "nanny state"?

And yes the death penalty does work…if not a deterrent then at least it stops that particular dealer.

So you believe the state has the right to murder someone who chooses to behave in a personally responsible manner?

Butch

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 130

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 7:25:06 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

LOL TX, I was right bout the differences of cocaine and crack and you my friend were wrong! You would do well to educate yourself a bit more before throwin' accusations of ignorance at others.

Just because you claim you have done somehting does not make it true.
Since you have chosen to be obtuse I will give you the answer.
Freebase/crack effectively removes the impurities(cut) from powder cocain and changes the coke into a smokable form which facilitates injestion.
How about in the future you bring you bring something more than opinion to the discussion.

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Post #: 131

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 7:45:15 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
LOL TX, I was right bout the differences of cocaine and crack and you my friend were wrong! You would do well to educate yourself a bit more before throwin' accusations of ignorance at others.

Just because you claim you have done somehting does not make it true.
Since you have chosen to be obtuse I will give you the answer.
Freebase/crack effectively removes the impurities(cut) from powder cocain and changes the coke into a smokable form which facilitates injestion.
How about in the future you bring you bring something more than opinion to the discussion.

Me chosen to be obtuse? What shit lol. First I said crack and cocaine were similar and from that you deduced that I didn't know what the differences between the two drugs are. I asked you why and you answered a question with a question which proves you couldn't admit you couldn't prove it. They are similar but not quite the same, an undeniable fact. I then defined the differences between crack and cocaine saying pretty much what you said above but you still pretend I'm wrong. I said crack/freebase were smokable forms. BTW crack is not pure freebase cocaine so you're wrong there too

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 7:54:47 PM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

And yes the death penalty does work…if not a deterrent then at least it stops that particular dealer.

Butch

I have no desire to debate the death penalty generally but I'm sorry, your claim is not supported by the facts in SE Asia. SE Asian experience contradicts your claim.

The death penalty has been given regularly for drug offences in many SE Asian countries for decades now. I cannot give you an exact number for total executions but it must run in the hundreds. During that period, the drug cartels have grown, the drug trade has grown, and the drug 'problem' has grown in all of those countries. The wealth of drug traffickers and their influence, and associated corruption have increased. By and large the people executed have been low rank couriers (often non-nationals or tourists), the more influential and powerful gangsters escape arrest and conviction.

The evidence is unambiguous - the death penalty has had no discernible effect on the drug trade. There is no evidence that it has had a deterrent effect on drug dealing/trafficking/consumption in the SE Asian experience. Please excuse me sounding categorical but all the evidence all points in the opposite direction to your claim.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/5/2011 7:58:42 PM >

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Post #: 133

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 8:21:16 PM

kdsub

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Don't you agree they would have grown faster without the death penalty...by the hundreds?

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 134

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 8:27:51 PM

kdsub

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I see no advantage in allowing blackmail by buying up opium...you would be naive to think they would sell only to us when the demand would skyrocket...Tweak it is a silly idea.

The only things that will work are heavy fines and mandatory treatment programs without incarceration… Then continue to persecute suppliers with increased penalties.

Zero tolerance with treatment works great in Sweden… better than the Dutch experiment...this is the direction we should be going

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/5/2011 8:29:11 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 135

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 8:44:50 PM

kdsub

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Sorry tweak...it is not a silly idea...that was harsh...but I do believe it is a bad idea.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 136

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 9:06:04 PM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Don't you agree they would have grown faster without the death penalty...by the hundreds?

Butch

Not at all. There is no evidence to suggest that.

All the evidence suggests that anyone arrested is replaced before the ink is dry on the charge sheet. There is an apparently inexhaustible supply of desperately poor people prepared to take their chances because of the huge rewards. Look at Mexico. Look at Columbia. Look at SE Asia.

A gram of heroin in Bangkok costs less than $2. After cutting, that same gram is worth well over a thousand dollars on the streets of Sydney. With margins like that, and poverty the way it is in the Third World, it is simply unrealistic to think deterrents will work. The rewards are overwhelming.

If heroin was available legally in Sydney, that margin would be totally eliminated. Prohibition, even military style tactics have failed to dent the drug trade. The only way to eliminate the evil of the drug trade is to cripple it financially - by removing the lure of vast easy quick profits.

Please check out the Turkish model to understand how legalised production works in practice. You'll be surprised how well it works.

quote:

The only things that will work are heavy fines and mandatory treatment programs without incarceration… Then continue to persecute suppliers with increased penalties.

I have never encountered any claim that mandatory treatment is successful in treating any form of addiction from anyone with experience in the area. Everyone I have met and everything I have read is adamant that mandatory treatment will not work.

You cannot force an addict to cure themselves. And addiction cannot be cured without the active co-operation of the addict.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/5/2011 9:07:33 PM >

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Post #: 137

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 9:12:28 PM

kdsub

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It is common sense...if they are dead they are not in the drug business...if there were hundreds executed... those hundreds would not be selling drugs.

If they are dead that is the proof.

It has not been a deterrent I agree but it does slow the increase by those hundreds.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 138

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 9:16:25 PM

kdsub

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Did you look into the Swedish model... if not do so… then tell me again it will not work.

Part of a treatment program would be education in the specific dangers of their drug...it has worked in other areas of the world no reason it will not work here.

Opiates were legal in the US at one time and that did not work.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/5/2011 9:18:54 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 139

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 9:30:59 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

Just because you claim you have done somehting does not make it true.
Since you have chosen to be obtuse I will give you the answer.
Freebase/crack effectively removes the impurities(cut) from powder cocain and changes the coke into a smokable form which facilitates injestion.
How about in the future you bring you bring something more than opinion to the discussion.

Where in the above quote do I say that crack is pure freebase?

quote:

BTW crack is not pure freebase cocaine so you're wrong there too

(in reply to WantsOfTheFlesh)

Post #: 140

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