RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminalize drugs

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:10:03 PM

Edwynn

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If the concern is for the benefit or detriment to society as a consideration, the empirical evidence is that prohibition escalates crime.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We know there are those that have a predisposition for addiction and free access to these drugs could kill them.

Butch

All that tells anybody is what an idiot you are for having some inane notion that there are people out there who have never delved into the experience at all, just waiting for the word 'go' from the authorities to indulge the urge and finally become the addicts as was their life's aspiration, by your account.

Why are you even speaking to the subject at all here?

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/6/2011 9:26:57 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 161

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:12:05 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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damn you know me by now...do you really think I am that way? I say what I believe and am tolerant of other view points...But just calling me selfish without addressing my point of view does not seem very fair to me.

tweak and I have been having a discussion where we are expressing different opinions and we may never agree but I respect her for trying to get her view across.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 162

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:17:49 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Most users take drugs (including cocaine and heroin) without getting addicted or suffering the problems associated with addiction.

Mind providing a source for this? What I am finding states the rate is over 50%. Maybe I am reading mine wrong so I would like to see yours.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 163

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:21:16 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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Why don't you also investigate the Swedish zero tolerance policies...I would like to see them in America.

They have better numbers then Portugal and would have a better chance of being accepted by the more conservative United States. You must remember the citizens of the US as a group are far different in their views on drugs then Portugal. Why should you care which system works as long as it works? Are you of the mind that only your way is the right way?

I’m open to new ways of fighting drugs and I am advocating new ways… just not your way.

Time and public opinion will tell who is right and I will be perfectly happy if your way is adopted and works.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 164

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:31:50 PM

Kirata

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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

calling me selfish without addressing my point of view does not seem very fair to me.

Calling you selfish? Get a fucking grip. You're the one calling people selfish.

it is selfish to demand all drugs be legal because you personally have no problems with addiction. You would be ignoring the death and destruction of thousands of lives for your freedom.

And yeah, I know you, you seem like a very nice person most of the time.

K.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 165

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:34:31 PM

Edwynn

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I'm not into 'fighting drugs.' in case that might have escaped notice.

There are too many people that have escaped prosecution for wrecking the entire economy for such a minor thing in comparison to take notice of here.

If you want to be just another ankle biter, then have at it.

They have you where they want you, however much pride you wish to take in that.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 166

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:39:53 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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Yes... I believe people who are demanding free access to any drug as a personal right are acting in a selfish manner... I stand by it.

People who think free access would help reduce crime and alleviate the suffering are in my opinion mistaken but not selfish.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/6/2011 9:42:09 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 167

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:48:05 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

tweak as I said in another post...I agree with you that most people who take drugs are not addicted to them. They are selfish and infantile when they ignore the fact that many people die getting the drugs to users...

One can make precisely the same statement about cellphones, tablets and other electronics that rely on rare minerals from Congo, where millions of people have died in civil wars over the control of these resources. These wars are ongoing as I write.

Should we make cellphones illegal? The case for doing so is much stronger than the case for making drugs illegal.

quote:

then many more die or have their lives destroyed because they do become addicted.

Many times more people die from legal drugs than illegal ones. Those that die from problems associated with illegal drugs often die from diseases such as Hepatitis that would be eliminated by safe legal drug taking.

quote:

I can do without cocaine or heroin or meth even if I don’t become addicted just to save others.

Every society has a number of people who enjoy stimulants of various sorts. There is no reason and definitely no evidence to suppose that this is going to change - ever. The idea that a society can be 100% stimulant or psychotropic drug free is unrealistic.

quote:

We know from past experience that allowing the free production and distribution of these drugs will kill many thousands of innocent men women and children. So all countries including Portugal continue to prosecute suppliers… This means even with their liberal laws on drugs people continue to be killed getting the drugs to users.

Do we know this? I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest this. Can you supply links to support this claim please? My understanding is that current laws were introduced for primarily moral reasons.

quote:

So it come down to is your right to do as you please more important than saving the lives of those unable to control their addictions.

Not at all. I see this as a false opposition. Current laws are causing deaths. The number of deaths due to recreational drug taking is minuscule. If the goal is preventing unnecessary deaths, then by any standard prohibition/punitive approaches have failed utterly.

quote:

Yes to me it is a moral issue…and I’m no prude …religious nut case… or conservative fanatic…I’m as middle of the road as they come.

I don't believe you are anything other than what you say you are. But I do wish you'd stop conflating drug taking and addiction. For the overwhelming majority of drug takers, one does not lead to the other. No more than enjoying an occasional drink leads to alcoholism.

_____________________________

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 168

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:50:34 PM

kdsub

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I admit using the words selfish and weak minded may not have been the best way to get a point across and perhaps I am too close to the problem to be objective but too late to take them back now.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 169

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:58:36 PM

Kirata

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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes... I believe people who are demanding free access to any drug as a personal right are acting in a selfish manner... I stand by it.

Well, there's no denying that some drugs have hazards and are potentially dangerous...

But I think people who want to force everyone to live in a fluffy pink cage are a lot more dangerous.

K.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 170

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 10:10:02 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

One can make precisely the same statement about cellphones

Yes but we are talking drugs and solutions not cell phones...love to find solutions for those problems some day as well.

quote:

Many times more people die from legal drugs than illegal ones

But they are in most cases used illegally and their abuse should be addressed the same way… treatment

quote:

The idea that a society can be 100% stimulant or psychotropic drug free is unrealistic

You are right here...but because this is the case does not mean we should not be trying to limit the harmful drugs.

quote:

Do we know this? I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest this

I supplied one link earlier and there are many more online...I will say that back then we did not have the same information on drugs we have today so the impact may not be as dramatic.

quote:

Current laws are causing deaths. The number of deaths due to recreational drug taking is minuscule

Current laws may very well be causing deaths but I think it depends on which drugs you are calling recreational. If you are going to say meth, heroin and to a lesser extent cocaine deaths are minuscule I believe you are wrong.

I think we are both sincere in our beliefs and want what is best for those caught in a drug addiction we just disagree on how to go about it.

No sense arguing anymore about it... like I said to Edwynn I believe I'm right but if not I'll be happy with any solution that works... We both agree current policies are not working.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/6/2011 10:16:54 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 171

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 11:38:54 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

tweak, if you dont mind, could you respond to my question? There is a reason other than debate that I would like to see the answer.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 172

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 11:57:53 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

Tweaky: "Do we know this? I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest this. Can you supply links to support this claim please? My understanding is that current laws were introduced for primarily moral reasons."

Hiya, sweets. Here's a link I think you'll find interestink. (wink)

Some Events in the History of Drugs

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 173

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 12:12:55 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Yes but we are talking drugs and solutions not cell phones...love to find solutions for those problems some day as well.

I'm guessing this will come as a big shock to you, but most people who use/have use psychedelics/entheognes consider them to be Sacraments, including myself. The Native American Church refers to Peyote as Medicine, and I agree.

quote:

You are right here...but because this is the case does not mean we should not be trying to limit the harmful drugs.

Heroin addicts in the Netherlands get government-supplied Heroin, and are productive members of society. Take away the stigma, the criminalization, the lack of stable dosing with an impure product, and Heroin becomes safer than aspirin.

quote:

quote:

Current laws are causing deaths. The number of deaths due to recreational drug taking is minuscule

Current laws may very well be causing deaths but I think it depends on which drugs you are calling recreational. If you are going to say meth, heroin and to a lesser extent cocaine deaths are minuscule I believe you are wrong. Butch

She's not. The stats, if they haven't already been posted, show that there are more deaths per Annum from prescribed drugs than from all illegal drugs. Tobacco kills roughly 80 times (IIRC) as many people per Annum that all illegal drugs combined.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 174

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 12:16:56 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Most users take drugs (including cocaine and heroin) without getting addicted or suffering the problems associated with addiction.

Mind providing a source for this? What I am finding states the rate is over 50%. Maybe I am reading mine wrong so I would like to see yours.

One needs to understand that continuous use will lead to physical dependence for the opioids. I have not researched this wrt cocaine, which is psychologically addictive. Casual use very seldom leads to dependence, from what I have previously read.

There is a difference between true addiction, dependence, and pseudo-addiction.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 175

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 12:28:28 AM

MrRodgers

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Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

damn you know me by now...do you really think I am that way? I say what I believe and am tolerant of other view points...But just calling me selfish without addressing my point of view does not seem very fair to me.

tweak and I have been having a discussion where we are expressing different opinions and we may never agree but I respect her for trying to get her view across.

Butch

I agree on the jist of your complaint but the issue is not society's predispositions...it is whether or not govt. should have laws that would jail people who fall prey to them. Should we jail gamblers ? Should we jail tobacco smokers and just because of their addictions ? We do not as we have allowed them as legal activities.

Drug laws simply create a very expensive and violent regime around a particular activity that those laws criminalize. BTW many conservatives are for legalization as these laws create a 'crime' where neither of the participants have an incentive to report it.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 176

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 12:44:30 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Tweaky: "Do we know this? I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest this. Can you supply links to support this claim please? My understanding is that current laws were introduced for primarily moral reasons."

Hiya, sweets. Here's a link I think you'll find interestink. (wink)

Some Events in the History of Drugs

Thanks HK. Fun stuff.

It was interesting to note the persistent themes of racism and sexual neurosis running through the puritan campaigns over the centuries.

Anthropologists would say that just about every culture has some kind of stimulant happening. Each culture develops its own social mechanisms to deal with these. The real problems occur when new stimulants are introduced into a culture which has no social mechanisms to regulate its use.

Thus, wine/alcohol has been part of European culture for thousands of years, but its introduction into indigenous cultures proved disastrous in Australia and Nth America. Or Sth Americans have used coca for ever it seems but its introduction to Nth America has caused problems. Ditto opium and hashish use is age old in India and other parts of Asia, but has been problematised in the West. In this view, it's not the drug itself that is damaging as much as the social circumstances in which it is used.

Developing appropriate social mechanisms to deal with drug use is comparatively easy. That's what this thread is about isn't it?

_____________________________

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 177

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 5:17:43 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Most users take drugs (including cocaine and heroin) without getting addicted or suffering the problems associated with addiction.

Mind providing a source for this? What I am finding states the rate is over 50%. Maybe I am reading mine wrong so I would like to see yours.

One needs to understand that continuous use will lead to physical dependence for the opioids. I have not researched this wrt cocaine, which is psychologically addictive. Casual use very seldom leads to dependence, from what I have previously read.

There is a difference between true addiction, dependence, and pseudo-addiction.

Since tweak doesnt know, what is the difference and where does someone draw the line?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 178

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 5:34:51 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The vast majority of drug use is not a disease... it is a decadent useless indulgence that is the cause of much misery in this world... it deserves punishment.

But for those that are truly addicted mandating treatment is hardly punishment... it is another chance at life.

If there were a legal way to abuse your body and perhaps kill yourself and others… what benefit would it be to have 2 or 3 or 10 more ways to kill yourself. Because alcohol is legal and can be deadly what idiot would say…will because alcohol can kill and is legal lets legalize many more killing chemicals so our children can ingest and abuse them too.

Butch

Please explain how passing a joint around at last nights BBQ caused misery to anyone, anywhere?

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 179

RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/7/2011 7:17:56 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

Please explain how passing a joint around at last nights BBQ caused misery to anyone, anywhere?

I am the injured party here...I was not invited to the bbq

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 180

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