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Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 11:45:46 AM   
FelineFae


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Status: offline 		i love to read up on the arts of the Geisha.

And i have made a comparisome in my thoughts that might be a bit perverse. Working in a gentlemen's club, i cannot help but see similarities between the East and West. Amid Exotic Dancers (not strippers) and Geisha;

* Both give drinks and conversation that make the patrons feel better when in their company.

* Both dance.

* Both use costumes.

* Both use make-up that makes the best use of the lighting in their work spaces.

* Both have a job where sex is NOT a goal, though teasing does take place.

Any thoughts ?


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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 11:53:06 AM   
DeviantMan


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Status: offline 		Actually, the Geisha, and the Greek Etaira, which is a very refined version of "top class escort" as we know it today, are pretty similar, as it is the case in several civilizations. After a point of cultural evolution, the female role became more important than just providing cooking and breeding labour. The Ancient Greek, and Traditional Japanese are two of the most known examples to it, where they had women that were in a manner prostitutes, since several times they would have sex with their clients... BUT... nobody would pay them just for the sex. They had a more complex role in male entertainment, being a considerable debate opponent, a philosophy equal, a skilled artist, mostly in dancing, music and theatrical performances, and men would pay them for the company... they found in these women, what their wives were unable to offer, which was the pleasant company, with someone that had enough education and refinement to communicate with them.
Which is also the reason both Geisha and Etaira were two figures that enjoyed respect and admiration by both men and women at their times.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 11:56:49 AM   
FelineFae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantMan

Greek Etaira


This, i've never heard of. You get one faery wish for adding to my vocabulary.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:01:43 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		The word hetaera was derived from it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaera

In Ancient Greek society wives more or less just there to give birth, little rights and not a lot of education, the hetaeras were highly educated and had a lot of freedom, being accepted by one of them as a lover brought enormous social standing

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:05:05 PM   
DeviantMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

The word hetaera was derived from it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetaera

In Ancient Greek society wives more or less just there to give birth, little rights and not a lot of education, the hetaeras were highly educated and had a lot of freedom, being accepted by one of them as a lover brought enormous social standing


Precisely

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:10:04 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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Status: offline 		If you are excluding strippers from the category of "exotic dancer" then who are you including?  Do you mean burlesque dancers and Vegas showgirls? 
 
From your description, there are more similarities between what the Japanese call a "hostess" and your exotic dancer than an exotic dancer and a classically trained geisha.  Hostesses are similar to geisha, but of a lower class.  A classically trained geisha would be "higher end" and more like Christina Aguilera's character in Burlesque after she becomes the star of the show.  But really, the cultural differences make drawing comparisons dodgy at best.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:18:02 PM   
DeviantMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

If you are excluding strippers from the category of "exotic dancer" then who are you including?  Do you mean burlesque dancers and Vegas showgirls? 
 
From your description, there are more similarities between what the Japanese call a "hostess" and your exotic dancer than an exotic dancer and a classically trained geisha.  Hostesses are similar to geisha, but of a lower class.  A classically trained geisha would be "higher end" and more like Christina Aguilera's character in Burlesque after she becomes the star of the show.  But really, the cultural differences make drawing comparisons dodgy at best.


Not exactly. What is heavily different, is the environment and functional details of the Burlesque and Geisha worlds. Both had women entertain men, without being paid for sex, even if sex was indeed part of their work.... women that men would not pay just for sex, if you like. Both had excessive training in fine arts, theatre, acting, dancing, singing... both were able to hold serious, and very sophisticated debates...
But, I must agree, that the modern Burlesque, or Cabaret, as we Europeans know it too, has very little to do with the turn of the century version of it, where female awareness was still severely limited, compared to today.
Burlesque artists of today, might be as refined as their 1900 counterparts, if not even more refined... however, today's woman , in general, is that refined regardless her profession... which is not the case in the original Burlesque, the traditional Geisha world, my Ancient Greek example, or any other non-modern female role.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:26:11 PM   
FelineFae


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Status: offline 		Any bimbo can freak-dance, take her clothes off to music, and get money shoved down her g-string. That is what strippers do and they work in strip-clubs or "titty-bars".

In a gentlemens' club, female patrons must be escourted in by a male patron. The dancers there do take off their clothes, but its done through strip-tease, similar to burlesque. Exotic dancers do pole tricks, the good stuff, and floor moves. It's not the same thing some drunken sorostitute would do on a tabletop whilst yelling " I'm so wasted !"

i believe the difference between a stripper and an exotic dancer would be the difference between a Geisha and a hostess. Some of their work is similar, but the level of class and patronage are key roles.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:29:08 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantMan

Actually, the Geisha, and the Greek Etaira, which is a very refined version of "top class escort" as we know it today, are pretty similar, as it is the case in several civilizations.


Uh..no.  The Greek haetera was nothing like a geisha. 
 
Geisha were not prostitutes, they were artists.  They could and did refuse sexual advances and their patrons still came back to see them.  They were not hired to provide sex, as haetera were.  They were trusted by clan daimyos with military secrets and discussed war strategy in some cases.  There are no records of Greeks ever doing that with a haetera.  Japanese wives were honored when their husbands patronized a geisha because it was indicative of his high status/great wealth.  There was no such honor given to Greek wives whose husbands saw a haetera.
 
To draw a comparison between haetera and geisha is insulting to the art of geisha.  Even drawing a comparison between a hostess and a geisha is insulting because hostesses are considered sleazy.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:36:53 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineFae

In a gentlemens' club, female patrons must be escourted in by a male patron. The dancers there do take off their clothes, but its done through strip-tease, similar to burlesque. Exotic dancers do pole tricks, the good stuff, and floor moves. It's not the same thing some drunken sorostitute would do on a tabletop whilst yelling " I'm so wasted !"


In that case, no, there's no comparison with a geisha.  Geisha wear multiple layers of clothing.  The most "erotic" thing a geisha would do is flash a bit of red underdress during a dance.  But there would be four more layers of clothing under *that* layer.  A geisha would never do anything as declasse as a pole trick or floor work. 
 
Also, the level of patronage is much different.  Even in modern culture, visiting a "gentleman's club" is considered deviant/perverse.  A lot of modern women consider it "cheating" if their partners attend one.  Japanese wives were happy when their husbands went to a geisha.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:43:33 PM   
FelineFae


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Status: offline 		Hence the prequalifier of "Western". i don't mean to say they are the same thing, hold a mirrored social statis, or such as that.

In the East, sex itself, or anything linked to sex, has a much different social perception that it's Western counterparts. Especially in the U.S.
But if we of the West had anything close to a Geisha, i think that exotic dancers are as close as you can get.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:46:34 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantMan

Actually, the Geisha, and the Greek Etaira, which is a very refined version of "top class escort" as we know it today, are pretty similar, as it is the case in several civilizations.


Uh..no.  The Greek haetera was nothing like a geisha. 
 
Geisha were not prostitutes, they were artists.  They could and did refuse sexual advances and their patrons still came back to see them.  They were not hired to provide sex, as haetera were.  They were trusted by clan daimyos with military secrets and discussed war strategy in some cases.  There are no records of Greeks ever doing that with a haetera.  Japanese wives were honored when their husbands patronized a geisha because it was indicative of his high status/great wealth.  There was no such honor given to Greek wives whose husbands saw a haetera.
 
To draw a comparison between haetera and geisha is insulting to the art of geisha.  Even drawing a comparison between a hostess and a geisha is insulting because hostesses are considered sleazy.


Actually not true, like the hetearas the geishas would pick and select suitors... And yes, the Greek wife benefited from the social standing of her husband as well, and that social standing reflected on the wife...

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:48:05 PM   
DeviantMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantMan

Actually, the Geisha, and the Greek Etaira, which is a very refined version of "top class escort" as we know it today, are pretty similar, as it is the case in several civilizations.


Uh..no.  The Greek haetera was nothing like a geisha. 
 
Geisha were not prostitutes, they were artists.  They could and did refuse sexual advances and their patrons still came back to see them.  They were not hired to provide sex, as haetera were.  They were trusted by clan daimyos with military secrets and discussed war strategy in some cases.  There are no records of Greeks ever doing that with a haetera.  Japanese wives were honored when their husbands patronized a geisha because it was indicative of his high status/great wealth.  There was no such honor given to Greek wives whose husbands saw a haetera.
 
To draw a comparison between haetera and geisha is insulting to the art of geisha.  Even drawing a comparison between a hostess and a geisha is insulting because hostesses are considered sleazy.


Etairas were far from prostitutes either. Nobody would pay an Etaira to sleep with him, and those that tried, were snubbed off. Diogenes, the Cynical Philosopher, once tried to lure Lais, the famous Etaira, to sleep with him. Naturally, his blatant, and dry, sex offer was rejected. Any prostitute would accept, given the money offered.
The reason Etairas would have sex with their clients was not because they got paid for it... The concept of sexuality in Ancient Greece, was chaotic, open and everywhere. Most people would pay an Etaira to keep him company... without even considering sex. The word itself means "Companion", literally. There were prostitutes in Ancient Greece, both like our modern ones, that would provide sexual relief to visitors, sailors and merchants, or the Priestess-slaves of Venus that would have sex for money, money they would then put to the temple's treasury. But, neither of the two would ever reach the refinement of an Etaira.

< Message edited by DeviantMan -- 6/2/2011 12:50:01 PM >

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:51:48 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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Status: offline 		Again, I have to disagree.  If you compared exotic dancers to hostesses, then yes, there are a lot of similarities.  But with geisha, no.  Exotic dancers do not have the skills or carry the prestige of a geisha.  You'd have to climb the social ladder to the level of a professional dancer or musician and the wealthy philanthropist who patronizes the arts to get close.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:54:52 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

Again, I have to disagree.  If you compared exotic dancers to hostesses, then yes, there are a lot of similarities.  But with geisha, no.  Exotic dancers do not have the skills or carry the prestige of a geisha.  You'd have to climb the social ladder to the level of a professional dancer or musician and the wealthy philanthropist who patronizes the arts to get close.


You tell that Dita von Teese....

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:56:06 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Actually not true, like the hetearas the geishas would pick and select suitors... And yes, the Greek wife benefited from the social standing of her husband as well, and that social standing reflected on the wife...


This is not entirely accurate.  In one of my women's studies courses, we spent quite a bit of time on the hetaera.  "Hetaera" was a broad category and some were of higher caliber than others.  Some could pick and choose, others couldn't.  All of them were prostitutes, however, which geisha were not.  That's the major difference.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 12:56:13 PM   
DeviantMan


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Status: offline 		OK, I am banging my head against a wall here... so, here's the wiki-link... and, if you still believe that an Etaira, is the same as an exotic dancer... then, I rest my case.

Better yet, let me quote the page's opening phrase, right here... "In ancient Greece, hetaerae (in Greek ἑταῖραι, hetairai) were courtesans, that is to say, highly educated, sophisticated companions close to what is for the modern times the geishas. They are often wrongly confused as prostitutes, due to having open, but unpaid sexual relations."

< Message edited by DeviantMan -- 6/2/2011 12:57:49 PM >

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:02:11 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

You tell that Dita von Teese....


Next time she's sitting on my lap, I will. 
 
Seriously though, rich and famous =/= professional artist.  As much as I enjoy Dita's work, she's not in the same class as Mikhail Baryshnikov. 


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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:02:26 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Actually not true, like the hetearas the geishas would pick and select suitors... And yes, the Greek wife benefited from the social standing of her husband as well, and that social standing reflected on the wife...


This is not entirely accurate.  In one of my women's studies courses, we spent quite a bit of time on the hetaera.  "Hetaera" was a broad category and some were of higher caliber than others.  Some could pick and choose, others couldn't.  All of them were prostitutes, however, which geisha were not.  That's the major difference.



Nope, you are mistaken something, the heteara were the highest ranking group, much like the concubines of Kings and Emperors, geishas however would sell their virginity to a protector - please tell me how that is different? Hetaera is NOT a broad category, they were the elite, the rest of them were prostitutes of various levels, but like a geisha you would not pay a heteara for sex - or else every history teacher at university was lying through their teeth.
Apart from Sparta (where women could actually own property) in Ancient Greek all women apart from the hetaeras were powerless, the hetaeras consorted with philosophers, politicians, athletes and were invited to parties to brighten them up. You could be the protector of one but that was no guarantee that she would sleep with you, the sexual favors were almost like a badge of honour.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:04:16 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

You tell that Dita von Teese....


Next time she's sitting on my lap, I will. 
 
Seriously though, rich and famous =/= professional artist.  As much as I enjoy Dita's work, she's not in the same class as Mikhail Baryshnikov. 



Personally I don't think all that much of her but that has another reason, but you wouldn't equate her with your average stripper - nor with a serious ballet dancer...

Edited to add: You can book her to go to parties with you if you got a lot of money, however like with a geisha or a hetaera the fact that she will accompany you there doesn't mean she'll sleep with you.

< Message edited by LadyConstanze -- 6/2/2011 1:05:37 PM >

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