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An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 6:47:08 PM

DarkSteven

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http://www.slate.com/id/2294804/

A Slate article states that there are a lot of Muslims that have no issue with mass civilian casualties, but that they're morally offended by porn. Yeah, weird. And the article also hints that the porn stash at bin Laden's might have been faked, to discredit him.

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 6:55:43 PM

pahunkboy

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Interesting. Good find Steven.

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 7:36:11 PM

tweakabelle

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Yes. It's strange indeed that some Muslims find pornography more offensive than civilian casualties. It's strange that anyone could have such twisted values.

Is this a Muslim thing or a religious thing? Many Christians, as we all know, would share that view. I don't hear the Religious Right anywhere condemning violence on TV or in the media with anything like the vigour it condemns porn. I've never heard any one from that sector complain about, say, the bombing of Dresden or Tokyo, both of which involved tens of thousands of civilian casualties in a single operation. I have heard endless complaints about porn from those people.

Suicide bombing was brought to prominence by the Tamil Tigers, a Tamil/Hindu outfit in Sri Lanka. While Hindu religious authorities may have condemned such tactics - I don't know - I've never heard such condemnations. Today, it is used almost exclusively in conflicts in the Muslim world, or where Islam is a significant factor in the conflict. I've heard some Muslim clerics support this vile tactic and I've heard many more Islamic clerics condemn it as "un-Islamic".

Nor is placing porn at the top of the list of horrors a uniquely religious quirk. Some feminists (to my personal disgust) do this too. So while I'm not disagreeing with your post DS I'm unclear what you hope to achieve by it.

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 7:56:22 PM

TheShrew

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I would probably tell my mother someone was odd for enjoying having their ass slapped, if she asked my opinion. Does she need to know if I dig that or not? Nope. That's personal to me. I suspect many people keep certain aspects of their private life.. private. Although, many people are fortunate and are able to live an 'in your face', I'm not hiding a damn thing.. lifestyle. Good for them , if they are able. Not everyone has that luxury.

As such, many people "claim" to be offended by a good many things that they partake of when no one is looking. As for the Bin Laden porn stash, I've no idea if it was/was not true. It wouldn't surprise me. It was proven via receipts that those carrying out 9/11 frequented strip clubs just prior to their actions. People judge the actions of others much more harshly than they judge their own.

For example .. I've never heard of a priest announcing his penchant for young boys at sunday mass. Nor have I witnessed baptist ministers confessing, from the pulpit, their tendency to have a roll with a pro before having been caught in the act.

If all humans were as righteous as they proclaim .. I would be shocked.
To accept that humans are, quite often, hypocrites.. is not a shocker.

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 7:57:10 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
the article also hints that the porn stash at bin Laden's might have been faked, to discredit him.

We likely will never know. We do not even know whether it was him.

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 7:58:37 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Many Christians, as we all know, would share that view. I don't hear the Religious Right anywhere condemning violence on TV or in the media with anything like the vigour it condemns porn

I must admit when it comes to Christians I don't know the religious right from left...but you will have to show me a poll that says Christians find porn more offending than civilian casualties... I can tell you as a Christian no one in my church would think that way...We hold all human life at a premium...and that includes Muslims.

I think you may be listening to the fanatic few rather than everyday Christians.

Butch

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 8:01:08 PM

pahunkboy

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This would fall into the parameters of the OP- the thrust of its point.

Did pork-coated bullet kill Bin Laden?

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 8:34:13 PM

provfivetine

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Interesting read. Good find!

This is a really touchy subject, and one that will certainly give way to tensions in the future (as if it hasn't already).

I think a good starting point for debate here is how far cultural relativism can be tolerated before intervention occurs. In Egypt's "liberated" military dictatorship there are virginity checks. There are stonings - not just because of adultery, but because of young muslim woman entering beauty contests. This article points out how porn is seen as more offensive than murders.

At what point does it become enough? If one favors intervention into these matters, then at what point does one admit that intervention (which aims to curtail these behaviors and establish a democratic society) perpetuates the problems that it aims to solve?

I can't help but think that much of this is due to the lingering effects of foreign intervention in the Middle East, whether it's the US, France, Britain, Russia, etc. When there are mass civilian causalities happening on a daily basis then it becomes banal. Muslims in the Middle East see death all the time; I'm sure they're just numb when they see it now and they aren't at all moved by Western casualties when they see so many of their own end up dead. Many Muslims associate anything that deviates from their culture as an attack on it, especially when it involves Western ideals. It's even worse when, drone strikes for example - which kill hundreds of innocent Muslim civilians - become a laughing matter by a Nobel Peace Prize recipient who campaigned on reaching out to the Muslim world.

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 8:46:04 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Many Christians, as we all know, would share that view. I don't hear the Religious Right anywhere condemning violence on TV or in the media with anything like the vigour it condemns porn

I must admit when it comes to Christians I don't know the religious right from left...but you will have to show me a poll that says Christians find porn more offending than civilian casualties... I can tell you as a Christian no one in my church would think that way...We hold all human life at a premium...and that includes Muslims.

I think you may be listening to the fanatic few rather than everyday Christians.

Butch

Yes. I am sure you are correct to point that many other Christians will hold views dissenting from those I highlighted. Nor am I even suggesting that the anti-porn pro-violence view outlined in the OP is held by a majority of Christians, or is typical of Christians. I am suggesting it is held by some.

My basis for doing is their public statements as I outlined in my previous post. I would like to think you are correct in attributing this view to a "few fanatics'. When one considers there are 1.5 billion Muslims world wide wouldn't it just be a few fanatics in their case too?

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 8:47:19 PM

kdsub

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Maybe a better way to word this thread would be Muslims in general are more offended by an affront to their religion than civilian causalities defending it.

Butch

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 9:16:27 PM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
the article also hints that the porn stash at bin Laden's might have been faked, to discredit him.

We likely will never know. We do not even know whether it was him.

It was him, all right. Had it been anyone else, then bin Laden would have released a video next day of himself laughing at the dumb Americans and condemning them for killing innocent civilians. And the Pakistanis would have been a LOT more outraged.

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"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 9:38:32 PM

TheHeretic

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Thanks for the link, Steve.

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 10:56:57 PM

lovmuffin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Is this a Muslim thing or a religious thing? Many Christians, as we all know, would share that view. I don't hear the Religious Right anywhere condemning violence on TV or in the media with anything like the vigour it condemns porn.

Seriously ??? That's a really long stretch

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 11:04:05 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Yes. I am sure you are correct to point that many other Christians will hold views dissenting from those I highlighted. Nor am I even suggesting that the anti-porn pro-violence view outlined in the OP is held by a majority of Christians, or is typical of Christians. I am suggesting it is held by some.

You nailed it when you attributed those views to the Christian Right. Murder ("Thou shalt not") in the OT was killing another Hebrew, i.e., one of God's people. Killing anybody else was a mere piffle; at most a financial obligation if the individual was someone's property. So from the point of view of the Christian Right, everybody else is already on God's barbeque menu. If they get killed, what the difference? Probably better sooner than later.

And as one might expect (though I confess it surprised me at first) there's also a cheerful swarm of fundamentalist Jews who believe essentially the same thing. But God is just a shill in all this. With some relatively trivial adjustments to the rhetoric, anything will work. Skin color, you name it. The problem is hatred. If religion disappeared tomorrow, and intermarriage removed all distinguishing racial features, people would still find something.

The enemy, as Pogo famously observed, is us.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/3/2011 11:16:23 PM >

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/3/2011 11:36:23 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Maybe a better way to word this thread would be Muslims in general are more offended by an affront to their religion than civilian causalities defending it.

Butch

I can't say I'm convinced that focussing exclusively on the religious connection is the best way to understand this issue.

But if we are to focus on religions, I definitely can't see any merit in singling any one religion out.

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/4/2011 4:29:30 AM

SilverMark

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If you grow up in an area where death is more common from many causes, perhaps life is just considered cheap as part of the society you came from?

May be less connected to religion than it is environment?

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/4/2011 4:30:03 AM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

But if we are to focus on religions, I definitely can't see any merit in singling any one religion out.

Interesting view. My purpose in posting was to show something that to me was astonishing - the idea of considering porn worse than murder of civilians still amazes me. I don't know of any other religion that would think that way.

After rethinking, I realize that there are in fact some self-professed Christians, such as Tim McVeigh, who might agree with that. But I consider them to be individual nutcases rather than a small but significant representative of the religion's adherents as a whole.

In other words, I am not singling out Islam as much as noting that it singled itself out with surprising acceptance of extreme views.

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"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/4/2011 6:10:54 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
the idea of considering porn worse than murder of civilians still amazes me

Populations that for many generations have practiced circumcision - which allegedly to some degree protects against sexually transmitted diseases - on their male offspring, are extremely vulnerable to such diseases (as they have evolved no resistance nor selective discriminatory abilities) and consequently must culturally - and perchance also genetically - evolve means to limit the transmission of such diseases. Being opposed to porn is one such means. Considering that sexually transmitted diseases can devastate whole populations, a couple of murders on civilians is relatively insignificant.

However, in my opinion sexually transmitted diseases benefit the evolution (from - sex obsessed - food animals to cognitive beings) of the populations that are afflicted by them. Thus trying to prevent or cure such diseases - opposing the Divine (i.e. in Islam speak not submitting to Allah) - actually harms future generations.

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/4/2011 6:18:26 AM

bighappygoth39

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

This would fall into the parameters of the OP- the thrust of its point.

Did pork-coated bullet kill Bin Laden?

Good God, I've not heard that one since the Indian mutiny...

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RE: An odd insight into the Islamic values. - 6/4/2011 6:32:11 AM

FullCircle

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There is no single Islam just as there is no single Christianity therefore it's a bit pointless taking the views of individuals (where they have other local influences) and then link that view with the religion they follow. I understand the article compared people of varying religious backgrounds in various countries but would anyone think the Muslims in Jordan share the same views as those in China?

During the second world war both the Germans and the British targeted civilian areas as an attempt to reduce the morale of their opponents, it's not as if targeting civilians started yesterday with terrorists. I blame this view that targeting civilians is new on the fact we wrongly believe we can conduct a precise war which only targets military or strategic targets.

War is bad, don't kid yourself that you don't have civilian deaths on your hands if you support war as an option. In any case it's beside the point to the families of the dead and the dead themselves as to if they were targeted or not. When you hold your hands up and say "Oh sorry we didn't mean to kill your family." is anyone going to turn around and say "Oh that's ok then as long as you didn't mean to kill them." You either support the war knowing what that entails, taking responsibility for all that happens or you object. It's impossible to determine if every effort is made to reduce civilian deaths. Personally I oppose most military intervention because I'm not under any illusion as to what it entails. Others it seems need to realise it's beside the point whether or not civilians are targeted (they'll still die).

It is a meaningless moral judgement that does nothing but give the ones that killed them comfort. Not just those that pulled the trigger but also those that voted for it and the ones that elected someone that thought war in that particular situation was justified.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 6/4/2011 6:46:15 AM >

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