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slvemike4u -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 2:30:10 PM)

AA is a cult pure and simple....now having said that...if it works for you and helps keep you sober ...go for it,For myself any program that has as one of it's sayings "once a pickle you can't be a cucumber again" or something to that effect is more than a little bit off the wall.My dearly departed,but not lamented father was a member...as was my late brother....the former was nothing more than a sober bastard for the entirety of his time sober...the latter actually found some peace prior to the onset of the cancer that took him.As in most things it is what you take out of it that matters.....but definite cult status....after all one of the main tenets is that your continued safety,sanity and sobriety depends on your continued working of it's program.....isn't that the very definition of a cult?



thishereboi -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 4:09:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

I never did think it was necessary to require God at alcohol anonymous meetings.


I didn't think AA was the only available option for substance abuse treatment. If you have a problem with "god" or a "higher power" (which is actually what AA uses) then find another group that doesn't mention it. Why the hell should everyone else change to conform to your standards?



Do you think that someone who was offering faith healing for cancer should just be allowed to dispense that as "treatment" with no one challenging it? The fact of the matter is if AA sold itself as just a support group to those who wanted a place to come and talk, I wouldn't think anything of it... but people have been court ordered to go to these meetings as a way of treating their disease.

My largest problem with AA is that over 5 years only about 5% of those who start their program stick with it, and that is about the same statistic of people who spontaneously would quit on their own anyways. If people want to quit using this method and it works for them, that is fine, but AA constantly sells this garbage that their way is the only way and the only way is through a higher power. If you say you were able to quit on your own they will tell you that you weren't really an addict, because if you were you would not be able to quit on your own. This is not reasonable, or logical, or scientific... it is sold as though it is a real treatment option.

I would have the same reaction if a support group for cancer patients started selling their support group as a cure instead of as an aid.




I am still waiting for you to explain what you mean by faith healing? But until then, lets touch on the judge ordered part. Do you think a judge would refuse someone request to go to a other group besides AA? Also as LP has pointed out, no one claims is a cure.



thishereboi -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 4:10:32 PM)

How many AA meetings have you attended?



DomImus -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 4:11:39 PM)

I personally know of a few alcoholics who would not seek AA help because it is faith based, or so they said. Whether they would have seeked out that help if AA was secular is unknown.





windchymes -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 4:23:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

I personally know of a few alcoholics who would not seek AA help because it is faith based, or so they said. Whether they would have seeked out that help if AA was secular is unknown.





There's a saying about the alcoholic needing to "hit rock bottom", whatever that may be for that particular person, be it waking up in jail, losing job, losing spouse, house & kids, committing vehicular manslaughter, whatever. And by that time, in a perfect world, they want help badly enough to reach out to something, anything, that they hope will help them.




tweakabelle -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 4:29:52 PM)

In my observation, 12 Step programs can be useful to some people, especially those who addiction is so intense that they have lost all structure in their lives. But it's not for everyone. And it does have cultish aspects. Personally I reject its one-size-fits-all approach - that's far too dogmatic for me. People are much more diverse than that.

A lot depends on whether addiction is seen as a incurable but treatable disease(a la AA's model ) or as a learned behaviour that can be 'unlearned' ( a la Smart Recovery/CBT models). If we are going to explore this, I've found it's a lot more productive if we focus on the differing models rather than the groups..



kalikshama -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 4:36:08 PM)

quote:

My largest problem with AA is that over 5 years only about 5% of those who start their program stick with it, and that is about the same statistic of people who spontaneously would quit on their own anyways.


I've heard this for years, and from AA stats but cannot currently find a source from within AA. I would argue that continual attendance of meetings /= success but that success should be framed by an absence of alcoholic behavior.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

The Harvard Medical School says that the vast majority of the people who successfully quit drinking for a year or more — eighty percent of them — do it alone, all by themselves, without any treatment program or "support group".

A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts. That is, out of any given group of alcoholics or drug addicts, approximately 5% per year will just wise up, and quit killing themselves.6

6) R. G. Smart calculated that the spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism was between 3.7 and 7.4 percent per year.
For studies of spontaneous remission in alcoholics, see: (From Bufe)
Spontaneous Recovery in Alcoholics: A Review and Analysis of the Available Research, by R. G. Smart
Drug and Alcohol Dependence, Vol. 1, 1975-1976, p. 284.
Recovery Without Treatment, by Thomas Prugh
Alcohol Health and Research World, Fall 1986, pp. 24, 71 and 72.
Alcoholism as a Self-Limiting Disease, by Leslie R. H. Drew
Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol. 29, 1968, pp. 956-967.
Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholics: Empirical Observations and Theoretical Implications, by Barry S. Tuchfeld
Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol. 42, No. 7, 1981, pp. 626-641.



kalikshama -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 4:48:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

How many AA meetings have you attended?


Back in the 90s, when I had a drinking problem, I attended AA meetings. I have also gone many times to support friends and family. I'm capable of mentally substituting "higher power" for "God." That's wasn't the part that turned me off, but rather the one twue way aspect and the powerless aspect. Bullshit on that.

I found Rational Recovery much more helpful. But that's me. I believe there are many paths up the mountain.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-powerless.html

Step One: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.

The A.A. First Step, where people are supposed to "admit" that they are "powerless over alcohol", is a hoax.

People are not "powerless" over their desires to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, or take drugs. Being sick, and having a messed-up life from too much drinking, is just that — being sick. It isn't "powerlessness." Having difficulties quitting is not "powerlessness", it's having difficulties quitting. Saying that your drinking has really gotten out of control doesn't mean that you are powerless over it.

Quitting can be hard, extremely difficult and painful, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible, or that you can't do it. Remember: When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

The "powerless" doctrine of Alcoholics Anonymous is one of their most central religious beliefs. It is one of those points where A.A. radically departs from Christianity or any other mainstream religion of the world, and enters the bizarre realm of cult religion. A.A. teaches that people are incapable of running their own lives and must surrender control of their lives to the A.A. group and a "Higher Power" who will control them, and do the quitting for them. Thus the real purpose of Step One is to prepare the new members for Steps Two and Three, where they will confess that they are insane, and then surrender their wills and their lives to "the care of God" and the Alcoholics Anonymous group.

One of the biggest problems with the Twelve-Step program is the learned helplessness caused by the First Step, where people are taught to confess that they are "powerless over alcohol." This leads many people to believe that once they have a drink, that a full-blown relapse and total loss of self-control is inevitable and unavoidable.4

The other half of Step One, which says that "our lives had become unmanageable", leads some people to believe that they shouldn't even try to manage their lives. Step Two is just as bad: it teaches people that they are insane, and that only a Supernatural Being can restore them to sanity — which means that they are helpless, and cannot heal themselves. Then Step Three teaches a lifestyle of passive dependency, where A.A. members turn control of their wills and their lives over to "the care of God as we understood Him", and they expect God to run their lives and solve all their problems for them from then on...



slvemike4u -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 5:14:12 PM)

Yes...it creates a self fulfilling prophecy.....that in and of itself is damaging.After my brother passed....I sought answers from substances,of course I didn't find them...what I found was an unmanageable life.I attended AA for 2 1/2 years mainly just for the company of others living sober....During that time,while internally rejecting all of AA's bullshit I went to therapy for my grief issues.That was all some 15 years ago....I drink when I want and stop when I want,drink has never caused me a single problem...no dui's no dwi's...nothing...I guess I was never a "pickle"....lol



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 7:53:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Uh, the Orange Papers have already been linked to.

Doesn't anyone actually read the threads they post in anymore? [sm=spanking.gif]

Otherwise, good posts. [8D]



tweakabelle -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 9:10:33 PM)

quote:

One of the biggest problems with the Twelve-Step program is the learned helplessness caused by the First Step, where people are taught to confess that they are "powerless over alcohol." This leads many people to believe that once they have a drink, that a full-blown relapse and total loss of self-control is inevitable and unavoidable.4

The other half of Step One, which says that "our lives had become unmanageable", leads some people to believe that they shouldn't even try to manage their lives. Step Two is just as bad: it teaches people that they are insane, and that only a Supernatural Being can restore them to sanity — which means that they are helpless, and cannot heal themselves. Then Step Three teaches a lifestyle of passive dependency, where A.A. members turn control of their wills and their lives over to "the care of God as we understood Him", and they expect God to run their lives and solve all their problems for them from then on...


May I say I agree with your perceptive analysis of AA/NA-type approaches to recovery? However, there are a number of positive features in the AA/NA program. I'd like to focus on the one I feel is the most useful.

This is the emotional support and connection that people get from attending meetings. In my observation this is one of the key features of successful 'recoveries'. Addiction often involves social isolation, loneliness and solitude as family and friends tire of supporting someone whose first love is the substance of their choice.

Meeting others who have similar histories, listening to their stories, realising that one is not the only one with these issues and most importantly, that others have dealt with these issues successfully is a great comfort and support to many.

Of course, it is not necessary to attend AA/NA to obtain these benefits. But for many people this is the first/nearest/only available option. And many non-AA/NA recoveries have been initiated at AA/NA meetings.

So, while I agree with your reservations about AA/NA, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.



Termyn8or -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 9:12:09 PM)

"Yes...it creates a self fulfilling prophecy....."

Any successful form of this does. There is a balance in life, and whether one is aware of it or not, all things, in this realm that is, including "karma" come from within. So does luck. Murphy himself (Elden Murphy, old and in Sandusky now) told me something decades ago - that you make your own luck. I have come to understand this to some extent and as such am convinced that it is true, at least to a great extent. The luck of the draw etc., still exists, but you DO control what you CAN control. You watch for hidden risks, in anything. I don't mean fucking criminal endevors here I mean anything, buying a house or car or any damn thing else, as well as selling. If you prethink things, you don't have as many pitfalls with which to deal.

So in every person is the capacity to understand this completely, but most won't. For those, there is life experience, trends and so forth. They can also make their own luck by thinking ahead, they don't have to understand the nuts and bolts. However this leads to a minor problem. And that problem is some panty wanty idea of us living on some utopia or something and everything couldn't be better. And we should all share.

Now should a person of decent character recieve much more than he gives, he will likely be generous. Hopefully not to a fault of course. If another gives more than he recieves, how does he deal with it ?

In religion, is the perfect solution to the problem. We just blame all the bad on some external force. Comes later that we must then praise the external force for being "kind" to us. Kind to us via weather, what are we a bunch of sun worshipping tribe down in Bumfukt Bumfuckt ? It was convenient and it filled a want. Not a need, a want. A need can be filled, a want cannot. So suffice it to say that it was a symbiotic relationship between soothsayers and shit that spawned religion, and the "followers". It really has worn out it's welcome though.

Now on to the topic of AA. Whether or not they actually qualify as a cult I can't say. That's in the eye of the beholder, or something like that. But I now know what turned me off to that years ago was that it promoted weakness. Their whole dogma is ADMIT that you are weak. Admit that this and admit that that. Become subserviant to whatever the name may be. Fucking NO. I wouldn't do it when I was fucking five years old, ten, twenty PERIOD. And that had nothing to do with AA, at that young age I REFUSED to give up my self control, to think that I was answerable to anyone.

I want to gain strength, they want to gain weakness.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 9:26:12 PM)

"So, while I agree with your reservations about AA/NA, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Hey, that's one of my sayings. And I agree.

Nobody is talking about disbanding them or anything. Outlaws or not, lol. Could always start another whole thing. BB - Better than Boozing.

I said it in another thread. Why can't people (in general) realize that there are friends who do not have to be blood sworn, allies, and that all others are not automatically enemies. If I may coin a term - takesidesism.

If there's a different plan, go with it. So it can't be AA, so maybe it's AB or AC. Who cares ? But for some reason it is a big deal.

Oh well, I guess I got sucked into it too. So much for that.

T^T



SternSkipper -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 9:52:54 PM)

quote:

I am wondering what the big deal is here, some people who do not believe in god as a part of their sobriety split from those that do.... seems perfectly normal and natural to me.


Though I never had a drinking problem, a strange set of circumstances brought me into a friendship with this fellow Rodney who is something of a legend in the New England AA scene. Years back Rodney was pretty much THE speaker you wanted at your monthly/bi-monthly "speaker meetings". In helping this young guy who was in total self-destruct mode, yet apparently struck a chord with Rodney. Enough so he would just not give up on this kid.
   During my countless conversations with Rodney and even reading the "big book" cover to cover, I learned that the philosophy SEEMS to dictate that you give your problem over to your "Higher power' and of what I was told and what I read, it was AT LEAST something external to the alcoholics themselves. And that 'higher power' roughly always translates to god, or the god-like.
  Rodney would tell me about this guy Walkin' Walter, who back in the 50s had been such a bad drunk and wrecked so many cars and done so much damage that this Newport County judge who saw him one time said "I am declaring you a walker for the rest of your life. And if i ever hear of you behind the wheel I'll kill you myself" (talk about different times). Anyway, it seems Walter's issue with AA (he'd been to scores of 'meetings' and half the time showed up drunk)... his big issue was that he was an atheist.
Well, Walter never got sober until some priest locked him in a bathroom at a rectory and told him "I don't care if it's a roll of toilet tissue. You aren't coming out of there till you get on your knees to your higher power and let him take this off of you". Walter developed a relationship with the bathroom's lightbulb as his personal savior. And the story goes he never drank again.
   Of course I thought this was kind of bullshit. And when I finally challenged Rodney on it, telling him I was getting a little weary of his weird parables, he called out "Hey Walter, got a minute" and this old geezer who looked like a 100 if he was a day shuffled over. Rodney says "He doesn't believe you exist. And he doesn't believe the story about you finding your higher power". Walter smiled and just reached into the pocket of his tweed jacket and pulled out a lightbulb.
     So I guess what I am wondering is... Has AA developed a fork in the philosophical road? Have they re-written or discarded the big book, which has essentially been their Bible? It's been more than 20 years since I have been inside an AA meeting, so I am curious as to what has changed.




Termyn8or -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 10:03:27 PM)

Question : Does that higher power have to be an inanimate object ?

T^T



SternSkipper -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 10:11:08 PM)

quote:

AA is a cult pure and simple....now having said that...if it works for you and helps keep you sober ...go for it,For myself any program that has as one of it's sayings "once a pickle you can't be a cucumber again"


It probably is a cult. And if it is, it's perhaps the most benign example I've ever heard of. I think there probably isn't anything even remotely close to it in numerical terms of having been a part in the sobriety of people since the first time alcohol addiction was first taken seriously as a medical issue. So if it's a cult, by definition, does it really matter?

  Some people NEED a solution like that I guess.




SternSkipper -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/6/2011 10:13:45 PM)

quote:

Question : Does that higher power have to be an inanimate object ?


Ask a priest... I just passed on the story. The point I think Rodney made with it is you have to give up the notion you are controlling things to someone/something else.




kalikshama -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 6:24:24 AM)

quote:

This is the emotional support and connection that people get from attending meetings.


As cleverly demonstrated in "Fight Club," one does not even need to have the condition to get support from support groups!

quote:

So, while I agree with your reservations about AA/NA, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.


I quoted the bit about Learned Helplessness to describe why AA did not work for me. To clarify what I meant about "many paths up the mountain," - whoever AA does work for, great!

I also object to their "this is the only method that will work" stance because it is intellectually dishonest, probably one of the reasons I preferred Rational Recovery. However, if I felt the need to go to daily meetings, and RR was only available weekly, I'd supplement with AA.




mnottertail -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 6:36:48 AM)

Yeah, like god would be fucking around in toronto, anyway.



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 9:02:03 AM)

quote:

I am still waiting for you to explain what you mean by faith healing? But until then, lets touch on the judge ordered part. Do you think a judge would refuse someone request to go to a other group besides AA? Also as LP has pointed out, no one claims is a cure.


For someone who is poor, has no medical insurance to pay for rehab, and lives in an area that does not have AA alternatives, there is little other option,... either go pray for the strength to quit drinking, or you go to jail



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