RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com

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juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 9:14:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomImus I personally know of a few alcoholics who would not seek AA help because it is faith based, or so they said. Whether they would have seeked out that help if AA was secular is unknown. I know someone I loved dearly who did not believe in admitting being powerless and having faith in a higher power was going to help him. I believe it was a stumbling block. This was before other ways of getting help were available, and AA was really the only model, and its 12 step children. I do not believe telling people they have no power in any way, shape, or form, is a helpful way to overcome any illness. We only have our own personal power. There were times when I was much younger I exhibited addictive behaviors. I won't get into it, but I quit my habits cold turkey. I never went for help. I have talked to people in NA and AA about this, that I would have triggered most of the questions on a self help survey for addiction at a certain point in my life. They ALL have said "Well then you were not really an addict because if you were you wouldn't have been able to quit on your own". I see this as the sign of a faith based system of beliefs. When confronted with a different model of "recovery", or ability to get past addiction without having to daily call a sponsor, be a sponsor, or go to weekly meetings, then you were never an addict at all? And then there is the "testimony" aspect of it all. You have to testify, like in church, about how your life sucked before you found AA. Is this reminiscent of testifying about Jesus? Yes it is. You have to constantly remind the world of how flawed you are, how powerless you are, how low you are, without the group to help you. This, to me, is a faith based, cultish thing. My brother is a born again Christian, and he talks the same way about his life prior to finding Jesus. This should not be surprising since it was founded on Christian principles. I could go on and on and on about it... I am quite convinced that this group has harmed as many people as it has helped...

juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 9:20:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper quote: AA is a cult pure and simple....now having said that...if it works for you and helps keep you sober ...go for it,For myself any program that has as one of it's sayings "once a pickle you can't be a cucumber again" It probably is a cult. And if it is, it's perhaps the most benign example I've ever heard of. I think there probably isn't anything even remotely close to it in numerical terms of having been a part in the sobriety of people since the first time alcohol addiction was first taken seriously as a medical issue. So if it's a cult, by definition, does it really matter? Some people NEED a solution like that I guess. When they go out and preach their gospel of powerlessness, yes it does matter. It is embedded into the mainstream culture, that people with drug and alcohol problems can't just "quit"... and that is not true. That lie has probably been deadly to more than one person.

SternSkipper -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 9:20:56 AM)
quote: Yeah, like god would be fucking around in toronto, anyway. Maybe he got really fucking hammered coming back from a show at Kopps Coliseum in Hamilton. happened to me once back in the early 90s

SternSkipper -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 9:52:24 AM)
quote: When they go out and preach their gospel of powerlessness, yes it does matter. It is embedded into the mainstream culture, that people with drug and alcohol problems can't just "quit"... I can agree and disagree with that. First, you're not talking about the salvation army here. They are just THERE and people come to them as their own Choice. There are increasingly exceptions to that in that some people actually get 'sentenced' to AA meetingss because the same governments that order them to do something ongoing about their addiction create no secular solution for ongoing maintenance of sobriety. But just because they may even be wrong in thinking this works with everyone or is the 'only way', it doesn't mean they actively go out and coerce people. If anything when I was observing their interface with society, my frustration was how easily they would throw up their hands and say he or she just isn't open to it and let them carry on in their self-destruction. And I am not even likely to believe that it would work with me. A person, who faced with the coming of my first child just sort of concluded it was time to leave various behaviors in my past. But more importantly, it's protected speech in this country anyway, and MAY even be somewhat entitled to protection as 'faith'. And I would further submit that if you disappeared the AA tomorrow, it would be very soon thereafter you would see a pretty nasty set of results. So whether we like the methodology or not, it has clearly helped a vast number of people. And sure SOME people can just quit. And SOME just can't. But my post wasn't for the purpose of defending AA as an institution I revere. I releated what I know in terms of how I saw it work and it's mechanics relative to the beleiver/non-believer in terms of god. quote: and that is not true. That lie has probably been deadly to more than one person.. I don't know if it's so much a lie as a belief with it's roots in long ago. And maybe it has killed a number of people. But what do you say to the millions (and it is millions) who would tell you the program has saved their lives. Like I said above, it's not for me. But it apparently is for many.

juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 10:05:06 AM)
Your post is hard to quote to address... I am sure that is has helped people. My point is that there became this idea that AA was a substitute for science of treating addiction. If you read the Big Book ( I have read it, been a while, so I am paraphrasing), it teaches that alcoholism is a real disease, but that its cause is spiritual, therefore recovery from this disease must be addressed spiritually. My issue with AA, because they came along before the science of addiction was even in its infancy, is that they cling to the idea of powerlessness, they cling to the idea of god healing people from their disease. They promulgate this idea through their members who testify to the public at large about it being the only way to get over addiction. Now, if they didn't say that the only way was their way, I would agree with you. If people hadn't had courts mandating them to go to meetings, I would agree with you, but the very fact that our legal system sanctioned this faith based program gives it legitimacy in the minds of our culture. Law impacts culture, and to not see this is to ignore that political reality.

windchymes -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 10:37:03 AM)
We also have to remember that AA and all its philosophies were founded in 1935, right after the great depression, it was a different world then. Many more people practiced religion and believed in God than do now, because it was all they had. Maybe they needed to believe they were as "powerless" against alcohol as they were against the God who let the potato famine, the dust bowl, and other natural events that contributed to the depression just as a matter of survival, to give them the strength to get through another day.....which is another AA philosophy....sobriety one day at a time. Perhaps it is time to re-examine and rewrite some of their guidelines and tenets? But at lease we can understand where they were coming from.

juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 10:39:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes We also have to remember that AA and all its philosophies were founded in 1935, right after the great depression, it was a different world then. Many more people practiced religion and believed in God than do now, because it was all they had. Maybe they needed to believe they were as "powerless" against alcohol as they were against the God who let the potato famine, the dust bowl, and other natural events that contributed to the depression just as a matter of survival, to give them the strength to get through another day.....which is another AA philosophy....sobriety one day at a time. Perhaps it is time to re-examine and rewrite some of their guidelines and tenets? But at lease we can understand where they were coming from. I completely agree with this, but it is like any other system, those who strongly believe in it are the ones that keep it going, and those who strongly believe in it are those who feel most helped by the current teachings....

tweakabelle -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 1:55:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes We also have to remember that AA and all its philosophies were founded in 1935, right after the great depression, it was a different world then. Many more people practiced religion and believed in God than do now, because it was all they had. Maybe they needed to believe they were as "powerless" against alcohol as they were against the God who let the potato famine, the dust bowl, and other natural events that contributed to the depression just as a matter of survival, to give them the strength to get through another day.....which is another AA philosophy....sobriety one day at a time. Perhaps it is time to re-examine and rewrite some of their guidelines and tenets? But at lease we can understand where they were coming from. This is already happening. Thirty years ago, AA philosophy held undisputed dominance in the recovery/treatment/support sector, at a theoretical and practical level. Then people began to develop approaches based on knowledge and science, such as Cognitive Behaviour Therapy. These approaches saw addiction not as an incurable lifelong disease but as an acquired behaviour that could be literally "un-learned". The two models became known as the abstinence and harm reduction models. Today, harm reduction is pretty much accepted at an academic level in sociology (in Australia at least. I'm less sure about overseas). Here, the debate has already entered the public arena where perceptions take longer to change. Most institutions have adopted it though there are still quite a few that retain the older model. Sorry I'm not familiar with the situation on the ground in Nth America. If current trends hold, the abstinence model will lose its remaining influence at a professional level in the future. Whether AA/NA themselves can or will change is doubtful. Their belief in their approach is dogmatic in my observation. Expecting radical changes within those organisations is asking quite a lot indeed. That would be a bit like Christians re-thinking and re-writing the Bible from start to finish.

thishereboi -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 2:11:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I am still waiting for you to explain what you mean by faith healing? But until then, lets touch on the judge ordered part. Do you think a judge would refuse someone request to go to a other group besides AA? Also as LP has pointed out, no one claims is a cure. For someone who is poor, has no medical insurance to pay for rehab, and lives in an area that does not have AA alternatives, there is little other option,... either go pray for the strength to quit drinking, or you go to jail Or they could go to AA, find a sponsor who is an atheist and won't push god in their face and try to get better. One of my first sponsors was an atheist and used the big book as her higher power. It worked for her and god never fit into the equation.

juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 2:39:22 PM)
quote: Or they could go to AA, find a sponsor who is an atheist and won't push god in their face and try to get better. One of my first sponsors was an atheist and used the big book as her higher power. It worked for her and god never fit into the equation. Perhaps you or someone you know felt helped by this approach, but then I am sure some people were helped by being bled in the middle ages, or having their humors read

Musicmystery -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 2:39:45 PM)
quote: I never did think it was necessary to require God at alcohol anonymous meetings. I was able to quit smoking without any help from religion so I can't see why people need God to quit booze. Two problems here. First, you have no idea about the complexities of alcohol addiction. And second, religion does NOT belong at AA meetings--spirituality, in its broadest sense, does. In short, "There's a higher power, and you ain't it." That could even be simply the help of others in the group--and AA literature even specifies that. It's too bad the Toronto people forgot that--on both sides.

Lucylastic -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 2:42:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper quote: Yeah, like god would be fucking around in toronto, anyway. Maybe he got really fucking hammered coming back from a show at Kopps Coliseum in Hamilton. happened to me once back in the early 90s I stay out of his domain, he stays out of MINE

LinnaeaBorealis -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 3:47:38 PM)
Ok, I've read every post on this thread. I am a recovering alcoholic with 35 years of sobriety so far. So I got sober before a lot of you were even born. And this is what I heard at one of my first meetings: "Take what you want & leave the rest!!!" So that's what I did. I used to go to a meeting where there was an old fart--slightly older than I am now, heh--who said he didn't understand how AA could possibly work for people who weren't Christians. I ignored that, because it wasn't something I wanted. Anything that exists out there to help people deal with addictions is going to work for some & not for others. What's the big deal anyway??? I've met people with many years of sobriety whose first exposure to it was court-ordered AA meetings. And here's the deal: if it works, why fix it?? If they take the spiritual aspect out of it, it may no longer work for those who've gotten sober & stayed sober with the help of the spiritual part of it. Why would you want to deny that to them?? Just because it didn't work for you or someone you know, you think that it should be changed to suit you? AA worked for me for the first 13 or so years of my sobriety. Around the winter holidays of that year, I went to a meeting where people were talking about how they hated the holidays because it meant family contact; & they hadn't resolved their issues with their parents. I sat there thinking, "When the phone rings I wish it would be my mom, but she died a couple of years ago, so she isn't going to be calling me." When a woman with 17 years' sobriety got up & said the same shit that everyone else was saying, I made the decision that I was no longer willing to wallow in an illness. What was the point of getting sober & staying sober if I never grew? And the next meeting I went to was to celebrate my 20th anniversary. I was the featured speaker. I was quite entertaining!! I made everyone laugh a lot. And the next meeting I went to with my ex-husband who quit on the same day with me. We were celebrating 25 years. And I've never gone to another. I considered going for my 35th, but it feels a little hypocritical. I believed them when they said I couldn't handle alcohol & drugs. And then I was run over by a car. I was talking with an AA friend & mentioned the morphine they had given me in the ER. She was shocked that I wouldn't tell them I was a recovering alcoholic & couldn't have narcotics!!! I told her that the next time she had her ankle, kneecap, pelvis, sacrum, ribs & cervical vertebra fractured at once & she refused the morphine, I might consider her an expert on the subject! And I did end up getting strung out on pain meds until I figured out a couple of years later that the pain wasn't ever going to go away & got off them. I will now have the occasional, I mean like every few years, sip of Moet et Chandon champagne. It's the only kind of alcohol that I can even enjoy now. The rest just tastes bad to me. And yanno what? Those sips have not sent me off on a toot. I am currently in need of opioids so that I can walk around. And I take them as needed. If the pain isn't bothering me, I don't take them. A few years back, my daughter came to me begging for help with her out of control drinking. I took her into my home. I asked her if she wanted to go to AA. She said no. I asked if she wanted to do inpatient treatment. She said no. I asked if she wanted outpatient treatment & she said no. I told her that she could do it her way this time, but if she ever got back into it & wanted me to help her get sober again, we'd do it my way. She's never had another problem. I didn't at any point tell her that my way was the best way; I let her choose her own path. So take what you want & leave the rest. Just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for you & vice versa. Live & let live in this case.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/7/2011 11:09:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Or they could go to AA, find a sponsor who is an atheist and won't push god in their face and try to get better. One of my first sponsors was an atheist and used the big book as her higher power. It worked for her and god never fit into the equation. Perhaps you or someone you know felt helped by this approach, but then I am sure some people were helped by being bled in the middle ages, or having their humors read Indeed. Never underestimate the power of the Placebo Effect. As the guy who researched The Orange Papers said, go to an AA meeting and see how many people get their 10 year coins. Or 5 year. Or even 1 year. Thier "success" rate is equal to the natural attrition rate.

LinnaeaBorealis -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 2:19:01 AM)
I was told 35 years ago that before AA there were about 5% of alcoholics who got sober & stayed sober. Since AA's inception, that figure hasn't changed. As far as I know it hasn't changed with the advent of more & different treatment approaches. Nobody seems to really know why it's true.

juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 7:58:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis I was told 35 years ago that before AA there were about 5% of alcoholics who got sober & stayed sober. Since AA's inception, that figure hasn't changed. As far as I know it hasn't changed with the advent of more & different treatment approaches. Nobody seems to really know why it's true. I am glad you found your path to recovery. I can't argue with your personal experience, but I can vocalize my own. I know of alcoholics that could not say that they were powerless, because they did not believe they were. It kept them from treatment. I am over 40 yrs old. I have been on this earth long enough to see more than a few people struggle with addiction, struggled with it myself, and lost one person because of it. At that time there were no alternatives to AA, and I think the "I must admit I am powerless over my addiction" is poppycock. I think it is a harmful world view. I think that propaganda that has permeated our culture has kept people powerless, and there are some people who will believe it and would rather drink themselves to death than spend every night at an AA meeting.... having been to a few myself, I can't say as I would blame them

Musicmystery -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 11:59:26 AM)
quote: I think the "I must admit I am powerless over my addiction" is poppycock. THIS is poppycock, as is your very faulty view of AA. "Here are the steps we took, which are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery." Period. "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking." And you know, sorry, but someone struggling with alcohol IS powerless over it (NOT over the addiction), and life DOES become unmanageable--which is why the alcoholic goes seeking help, whether from AA or any other treatment option. Nobody goes to AA on a winning streak. There's a problem, there are others who overcame it, so they ask their help. Hell, that's how life should work in all areas.

heartcream -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 12:14:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Religion doesn't belong anywhere, except inside you. T^T quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Yeah, like god would be fucking around in toronto, anyway. That is what she said.

tweakabelle -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 12:36:15 PM)
If people were really powerless over their addictions, they wouldn't be at AA/NA in the first place would they? It seems to me that a person has to exercise a choice in order to attend a meeting - they could be at the pub/dealers instead. They have to decide to do something about their issues before they arrive at AA/NA. Ergo they are not powerless.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 3:59:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heartcream quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Religion doesn't belong anywhere, except inside you. T^T quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Yeah, like god would be fucking around in toronto, anyway. That is what she said. I have it on good authority that god indeed move to Toronto so he could play online poker after the US shut the major sites down.

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