RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos)

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Muttling -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 7:17:56 AM)
I used to compete working dogs and have dealt with the exact situation the OP is in when I owned horses. I disagree with the term "vicious" breed, but there are certainly several that are more aggressive than others. However, I wouldn't put pit bulls in that category. My absolute favorite breed (german shepard) I would put in the aggressive category and belgian malenois tend to be a level of aggression that is beyond anything I've worked with. It's letting the dogs run loose that's the problem. Unfortunately, my experience has been that the best way to deal with this situation is to not complain to the owners any more. Wait till the dogs are on your property and shoot them. Bury them and don't mention it to the owners. The owners have shown that they aren't going to deal with and the police have shown that they aren't. You're within your rights to protect your livestock and you have no legal obligation to inform. The more you make it a conflict with the owners, the more you risk retaliation for protecting your livestock.

Sanity -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 8:24:46 AM)
Its not training, most any large dogs running loose are dangerous, people dont realize this. Dogs, even pet dogs, naturally form packs and attack other animals. Heres a story out of Washington State: quote: Wash. residents warned of 'bloodthirsty' dog pack SPOKANE, Wash. (AP) - A "bloodthirsty" pack of dogs has killed about 100 animals in the past few months while eluding law enforcement and volunteers in northeastern Washington state, residents and authorities said. The killings started in late March and have occurred in a wide area of mountains and valleys west of Deer Park, a small town about 40 miles north of Spokane. "Trying to figure out where they are going to hit is next to impossible," Stevens County Undersheriff Lavonne Webb said Thursday. "Nobody is claiming ownership of any animals involved in the pack." Most recently, the dogs killed a 350-pound llama Tuesday night. They've also killed goats and other farm animals. So far, no humans have been attacked. But authorities are warning residents to take whatever steps are necessary to protect their families and animals because the dogs appear to be killing for fun rather than food. "We have this pack that is out there killing for the sake of killing," Webb said in a telephone interview from Colville. "What is going to happen if they come across a small child?" Read more at http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110610/D9NOPLUG0.html In that article is a photo of one of the dogs involved in those attacks and the dog looks to be well fed and healthy, most likely someones pet. Someone who could never dream that their sweet lovable Fido would ever harm another living thing... As to the animals I referred to as vicious breeds, these are the dogs that many individuals buy, raise and train as "guard dogs" or even as attack dogs. While it may be true that training and breeding may produce relatively harmless dogs of these breeds I as a homeowner cannot know the temperament of every stray dog that wanders on to my property, and I have friends, family, pets and livestock to think of. The pit bull I shood away a week ago seemed harmless enough, and I thought very little of his presence at the time. Never again will I give such a breed wandering my property a similar break though! And I am teaching my family members to be aware wherever they are of the dangers, as well. quote: ORIGINAL: MaxsBoy Exactly what the Lady said, but insert "pit bull" instead of "doberman". Oh, and the "pit" that pit bulls are named for isn't the dog fighting ring, it's the bull ring. They were bred first to fight bulls. So yes, they can be dog aggressive sometimes, especially if not trained properly, and they can have a high prey drive. But they have been bred for hundreds of years to have no aggression towards people. People are bitten much more frequently by small yapper dogs than by pits, but the pit bites make the news because pit panic is all the rage right now. The bottom line is this: any dog can bite without warning, even the most trusted elderly golden retriever (ask me how I know that), and any dog is dangerous with the wrong handling.

LinnaeaBorealis -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 10:53:41 AM)
It's unfortunate that the publicity is given to the relatively rare vicious large dogs & not to the majority of incredibly sweet harmless ones. I had a chihuahua/jack russell cross who had been feral. I worked with him nearly constantly to turn him into a good pet. And he was a very sweet & happy pet. But every now & again, he'd lose his mind & revert a little. When he did that, I would throw him on his back & pin him til he remembered who was Alpha. Had he been a larger dog, I never would have been able to do that due to my physical limitations. Which is the very reason that I chose a small dog. I knew that I wouldn't have been able to control a larger dog. Bad owners are a huge problem. My friend has a friend who has a Samoyed who is untrained & unruly. She excuses the owner by saying that he's too "nice" to discipline the dog. I disagree. I think that this is abuse & neglect on the owner's part. Dogs need to know their limits just like children do. And they thrive inside those boundaries. I feel very sorry for the animals who will now be put down for their behavior & the owners will continue to live & perpetrate their abuse.

LaTigresse -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 11:20:43 AM)
I love dogs, I adore dogs. In my immediate family, my home, my son's home, my daughter's home.........we have 5 dogs that are either pure bred or mixed breed, that are full or part.....'aggressive breed' dogs. I have a huge, alpha personality, purebred German Shepherd and a German Shepherd/Chow/Coyote. Neither of which is an 'any person' dog, though they both are better with small children than my 12# Minpin/Papillon mix. SHE is NOT to be trusted alone with small children AT ALL. My daughter has a big male German Shepherd that is a total baby sitter, the baby literally crawls all over him and tortures him if allowed with fingers in eyes, mouth, ears, etc. Yet he has a fit if my daughter tries to separate him from the kids. My son has a female 'pit' that is literallly one of the sweetest natured dogs I have ever known. EVER. She worships my grandsons totally. The male dog that came with the girlfriend I have yet to meet. My family has always had German Shepherds. Both of my sisters each of one, youngest sister's is my girl's father. Two of my brothers also have one. One.......was poorly bred and his disposition shows it. I don't trust him with adults and definitely not around strange dogs. He would kill another male dog if given the chance. The reality is, all of these wonderful dogs in my family COULD be problem dogs, in the wrong human control. I am certain of it. My beloved Nala is very protective and has required a great deal of training and supervision. She is 15 months old and I am just now beginning to leave her unsupervised in the house with the smallest dog. I am quite confident that had I not kept them separated when unsupervised, the little dog would have suffered serious injuries and possible death. Some breeds absolutely require more training, more supervision, and stronger handling to keep them as good trustworthy companions. Many people just do not seem to get that. Additionally, ALL large dogs, mishandled in some way, CAN be dangerous. I've seen dangerously aggressive Labs, Great Danes, Saint Bernards, Golden Retrievers, you name it........ It isn't the breed or the breed's temperament that is an issue. It is their size combined with temperament. I guarantee you if my 12 pound dog was 120 pounds, she would be a dangerous dog. I guarantee it. Her disposition is 100% alpha and aggressive. If we have company, especially kids that are not dog savy, she gets locked up. When she gets tired, she gets cranky. She had small dog/Napoleon syndrome. So she gets close observation and often times, isolation. If she were bigger, with the attitude she has, she would be much more so. And yes, if my neighbours had dogs they allowed to run loose and those dogs attacked my animals........I would shoot them. Just as I would expect my neighbours to do if I allowed Nala to run loose and attack their goats, sheep, or cattle.

DesFIP -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 2:13:21 PM)
Assuming the Malinois is similar in temperament to the Terveren, that isn't my experience with them, Muttling. I never found them aggressive, just single minded in herding people. My ex inlaws raised them, perfectly fine even with a baby crawling all over them, but only happy if they could nudge all the people into one corner of the room. However, I also suggest shooting them and burying them. It takes forever to go through the legal system. Here it's legal to shoot dogs that run deer, no questions asked. As you have an eyewitness and deputies who can identify the owner, I suggest you demand damages in a hefty sum. Even a thousand in small claims court will be enough of a bite that they won't let the dogs run loose again.

Muttling -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 2:26:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Assuming the Malinois is similar in temperament to the Terveren, that isn't my experience with them, Muttling. I never found them aggressive, just single minded in herding people. Belgian Malenois isn't a herding breed, it's a working breed that many police departments and the U.S. military has started going to. They are similar in temperament to a german shepard, but a little smaller which gives them a longer working life and a better ability to ride in vehicles for long periods of time. The problem is their aggression is higher and their obedience drive is lower which makes them more difficult to handle. The Shutzhund club I was a member of was about half german shepards and half malenois with a scattering of other breeds as well. They are definitely the most aggressive (as in they particularly enjoy bite work and will challenge alpha figures such as the owner/ handler) breed I've ever seen, but that's a generalized statement. The things I love about german shepards is that they are massively obedience drive so they LOVE to please and they have a very strong pack orientation so they seldom challenge leadership. This also makes them a danger when allowed to run loose as they will quickly take to doing what the OP is currently trying to deal with.

LinnaeaBorealis -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 6:22:39 PM)
Sanity, if you do indeed decide to shoot these dogs I suggest that you bury them deeply & obscurely so that you won't get caught for it. Because in some places destroying their dogs no matter what they have done on your property could get you into a world of hurt.

Sanity -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 6:42:40 PM)
Its perfectly legal here for me to shoot dogs if theyre attacking my pets or my livestock or if I just feel threatened by them.

Muttling -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 7:33:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis Sanity, if you do indeed decide to shoot these dogs I suggest that you bury them deeply & obscurely so that you won't get caught for it. Because in some places destroying their dogs no matter what they have done ..... I am curious as to where you are speaking of. If the dogs were attacking a young child and he killed the dogs to protect the child, where is it that he would be charged for doing so????? You say "no matter what they have done" so I am asking the question of what if the victim is a human child and he acted to protect that child's life? Please provide me with references to actual laws that say he can't kill the dogs to save the life of a child.

SternSkipper -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 7:53:26 PM)
quote: Sorry, but that is complete BS, calling dobies a vicious breed, had them all my life and got 2 of them now, they are the most mellow dogs you can have, everything but a vicious breed, amazingly sweet and affectionate animals, they get bullied by the cats, and not just mine, love children, they are family dogs and not a "vicious breed". I agree with Constanze, and while I am sorry about you steer, Dobies. while effective for protection don't by a long shot have that snapped brain characteristic of all the inbreeding that's gone on in the freaking terrier world. Having grown up on a horse farm myself, I can tell ya mine, with no particular training besides the basics, was a great asset with regard to the live stock. Can't tell ya how many times we had a horse break out of the paddock and head for the road. That dog stopped and and turned em back every damned time before they got their dumb asses killed. I've never had anything resembling a positive experience with pitts and I think reminiscent to the early 70s, the wrong mother fuckers have gotten ahold of that breed. Again sorry about your steer. And you have to deal with predators the way any farmer would. Good Luck.

SternSkipper -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 8:00:55 PM)
quote: What MaxsBoy and LC said. I worked in pit bull rescue for many years and have handled/ trained literally hundreds of pits, rotts, dobies, and other 'vicious' breeds, many of them abandoned or abused rescues, all without incident. Since you're in Cali and yeah, I know it's a big place and all... but when you worked pit rescue, did you ever have occasion to meet that dwarf fellow that does the same and goes around to schools? Only reason I ask is that my 9 year old daughter loves that show.

hlen5 -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 8:48:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse ..............though they both are better with small children than my 12# Minpin/Papillon mix. SHE is NOT to be trusted alone with small children AT ALL................ LaT, Have you had this dog all it's life?? I have a 6 year-old Min-Pin (12#) that I got last November. He had "issues". He now has fewer of them but I'm very careful around anyone with him too. I had a good (very controlled!) encounter with some kids today on our walk. I was very happy with the encounter and very pleased with his behavior. I doubt I could ever walk him off-leash.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 8:50:45 PM)
if i were you i'd go over to the owner's place and shoot the fuckers on sight. if the bastard objects? fuck it, shoot him as well. hannah lynn p.s. this is just my advice, i never said it was good advice.

LinnaeaBorealis -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 8:54:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Muttling quote: ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis Sanity, if you do indeed decide to shoot these dogs I suggest that you bury them deeply & obscurely so that you won't get caught for it. Because in some places destroying their dogs no matter what they have done ..... I am curious as to where you are speaking of. If the dogs were attacking a young child and he killed the dogs to protect the child, where is it that he would be charged for doing so????? You say "no matter what they have done" so I am asking the question of what if the victim is a human child and he acted to protect that child's life? Please provide me with references to actual laws that say he can't kill the dogs to save the life of a child. Obviously I misspoke & wasn't referring to self-defense. Please oh please forgive me.

LaTigresse -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 9:11:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse ..............though they both are better with small children than my 12# Minpin/Papillon mix. SHE is NOT to be trusted alone with small children AT ALL................ LaT, Have you had this dog all it's life?? I have a 6 year-old Min-Pin (12#) that I got last November. He had "issues". He now has fewer of them but I'm very careful around anyone with him too. I had a good (very controlled!) encounter with some kids today on our walk. I was very happy with the encounter and very pleased with his behavior. I doubt I could ever walk him off-leash. I got her as a wee one. Biggest problem is her personality. She sincerely believes she is a big dog and that the world really does belong to her. Also, because our house is normally very quiet, with very few visitors, a lot of chaos tends to make her nervous. And, as many small delicate dogs are, she is uncomfortable with anyone that is loud and unpredictably active. Small children tend to be both loud and very active, unpredictably grabbing or stepping. It's a self preservation thing for her to be constantly on the offensive. My grandsons are used to her, and very gentle. The grand daughters, being younger and used to the large, overly accomodating, German Shepherd they have, I have to be more careful in supervising.

LafayetteLady -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 9:12:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel I hate to say it but the irresponsible dog owner is the one refuses to recognize the very REAL possibility that their breed is one that has major instincts to attack or whatever its defined as. Caustion and realization and prevention are three things that make a responsible owner of these types of breeds. If you have an owner oblivious to the possible risk, that to me is when a dog is dangerous. Being in denial is not a sign of a responsible owner. I am not saying get rid of or shoot down a pit, i am saying if you own one, don't make excuses for the breed, simply be aware and recognize the breed has a very real tendency to be vicious. Doesn't mean your dog will be, it means by being aware, you may actually prevent your dog from becoming one in the statistics. Sanity, i hope your animals are okay. I am editing this to ad when i speak of an owner knowing the breed, i speak of any breed. I am not one for regulating or getting rid of pits, but as an owner, you should be aware and acknowlege the statitstics as any breed owner should. Knowledge is the first power of prevention for any breed owner. angel Given your job, it is not illogical that you would make such a comment. It is, however, irresponsible and completely lacking in knowledge of dogs. Let's face it, any number of people here could, and have, posted web sites contradicting what your site suggests. Of course, the difference is a huge one. It is called reality vs. the legal argument. The legal argument ethically should include the other quoted sites that defend these "vicious" breeds. Of course that is only if you are good at writing a legal brief. Quite honestly, your ability there is in serious question in my opinion. You are completely correct in suggesting the actions that the OP take. In EVERY state, the owner of the dog is responsible for the dog's actions. Humans are naturally higher in the food chain than dogs, cattle, horses, cats, whatever. If you are going to own a pet, each state has laws that dictate what responsibilities the owner has, whether it be leash laws, fencing your property or muzzling your animal. There are not breeds that are more "naturally vicious." That's pure ignorance. As you say, knowledge is power. You don't train a toy poodle, the same way you train a doberman or a pit bull. Each breed has its strengths and weaknesses and just like humans, need to be trained in different ways. I currently live in a house with a pit bull, two German Shepards, two Poodles, a Beagle, a Shitzu/Maltese and two Chinese Cresteds. There are also nine cats (ten when you include mine). The most "vicious" of the NINETEEN animals? The male poodle and the Shitzu mix, then there is a male cat who I fostered as an infant and bottle fed who literally screams at me whenever I walk by. The pit bull? She's a big baby and knows she is "low man on the totem pole" of the dogs being the youngest and the newest. Know how many dog fights we have every day with this "pack" of animals? ZERO. Why? Because the animals have been taught, each according to its breed, that such behavior is not tolerated. Statistics are wonderous things. I am by no means an expert at statistics, but you give me any set of "statistical" data and I can spin it to say that pit bulls are the most vicious animals on earth or the most gentle. That's the beauty of statistics. They are essentially mythical analysis displaying only what the analyst wants you to see. Why do we not see a whole bunch of other breeds in so many of these statistics? Because the data that is used is only the reported data, and most people aren't reporting about the breeds that they don't have a hard on about regulating. To say that people like Wyldhrt and others who have spent actual time working with these breeds, training them, rescuing them from irresponsible owners are deluding themselves about the reality of the breed is nothing more than a show of pure ignorance, pompously being presented as fact by someone far to deluded to recognize reality.

LafayetteLady -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/11/2011 9:18:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I got her as a wee one. Biggest problem is her personality. She sincerely believes she is a big dog and that the world really does belong to her. Also, because our house is normally very quiet, with very few visitors, a lot of chaos tends to make her nervous. And, as many small delicate dogs are, she is uncomfortable with anyone that is loud and unpredictably active. Small children tend to be both loud and very active, unpredictably grabbing or stepping. It's a self preservation thing for her to be constantly on the offensive. My grandsons are used to her, and very gentle. The grand daughters, being younger and used to the large, overly accomodating, German Shepherd they have, I have to be more careful in supervising. I have found that the "miniature" breeds tend to have this personality trait of thinking they are a big dog. I used to breed toy poodles, and I'll be damned if my male, at less than ten pounds and barely 12" floor to shoulder didn't think he was still a proud standard size who could take on the biggest dog in the neighborhood. While I have no verifiable proof, I believe that while the breed was bred to be smaller, cuter, and more of a "pocket" puppy, there is a recessive gene that remembers the standard size and they have a distorted image of themselves as still being the big dogs the breed started as.

barelynangel -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/12/2011 5:07:53 AM)
LayfayetteLady, I have no clue what you are talking about. Where did i ever say there are dogs that are naturally more vicious. i SAID, and let me quote "I hate to say it but the irresponsible dog owner is the one refuses to recognize the very REAL possibility that their breed is one that has major instincts to attack or whatever its defined as. Caustion and realization and prevention are three things that make a responsible owner of these types of breeds. If you have an owner oblivious to the possible risk, that to me is when a dog is dangerous. There ARE DOGS that have major instincts to attack or "whatever its defined as." That isn't ignorance, its truth and if you deny same YOU are the one who is speaking in ignorance. The website has data that shows how many bites etc, show me a website that contradicts that. I haven't seen one. In fact i also posted a website that shows the DIFFERENCE between canine homicide and biting. Perhaps you are too eager to see my post as a NEGATIVE concept when it wasn't and you were too eager to want to say how ignorant my post was when again it wasn't. It was spot on to what most people are saying. As LaTigresse and others pointed out, it is ABSOLUTE ignorance to be in denial about your dogs and yes, on many occassions what a breed is capable of. If you seriously want to run around saying its okay to be ignorant and in denial what an animal breed is capable of when you own same, then fine, but i will disagree with you every time. Again, please show me a website contradicting the statistics. All that one webite does is state the statistics, but if you have different statistics then please show them to me. I never said anything like your last paragraph implies, perhaps you need to slow down and READ what was said instead of putting words into someone's post. That in and of itself is pompous of you to do. And if you read my post, you will see -- if you take your negativity glasses off, i speak of the OWNERS being in denial about what their dogs CAN be capable of. It is ignorant of an owner to own a dog and NOT be aware of what it is capable of -- if yo don't acknowedge what it is capable of how can you TRAIN it properly. And, yes, only someone ignorant would ignore what statistics do say, because like it or not, they show what a dog with bad owners can DO. Therefore, that gives them an idea of how to be good owners and train them a certain way. But of course, people can remain in denial and not train them with the understanding of what the dogs are capable of, and well gee, would that make them a BAD owner, yes? angel

LaTigresse -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/12/2011 5:11:15 AM)
Yup. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeaaaatttttttt BIG attitude..............itty bitty package. [image]local://upfiles/223909/CB29229312D243FFA45FF796254AAB22.jpg[/image]

barelynangel -> RE: When A Dog Pack Attacks (Graphic Bloody Photos) (6/12/2011 5:31:55 AM)
lol that dog even stands like it's bigger than life. We had a Gernam Shepard when i was a baby, and that dog was MY dog from the moment i came home from the hospital. It used to be my mom's dog, she said he would lay with his head on her belly lol. It would not leave my side if i was in the house. If i left, he would lay by the door until i came home, if he was sent out to the dog run he would jump the fence into the pool area and lay under my window and if he heard me crying and he wasn't in my room he would start barking. At night, if i started crying and my mom didn't come in, lol he would go get her. I could do anything to that dog - he taught me to roll over -- his helpful nose pushing me over. He let me use him to stand and walk etc. He didn't like my brother near me though. He would push himself between me and my brother. He didn't let our other two dogs near me until i learned to walk and then he would have this suffering look on his face while he stood guard when i toddled up to play with them lol. Unfortunately, his guarding of me went a little far the day my mom slapped away my hand from a plug when i was almost 2, and well Duke bared his teeth and growled at her. So they sent him and the other two dogs to a friend who had a big farm and a great owner. They were afraid that because they allowed this, he would one day do the same or more to my brother - in this they were bad owners :-( . We went to visit him when i was older and of course i didn't remember him but he remembered me lol. Of course, this was all told me by my family. I think dogs are great, i wish my apartment was big enough for one. I love personalities of animals. angel

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