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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:13:41 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		I agree with MJ01

Rich- to your point about working together- here's what I've seen as someone who is proud to wear the liberal jacket-

Repubs call for working together when they can't run the show themselves. However, it's been MAD politics- i.e. hand grenades at 2 paces. As we've discovered, it's very hard to have a productive discussion under these circumstances. From a liberal perspective- the Repubs have gotten a great deal of what they've asked for in terms of tax cuts- which is an utter disaster- and curtailing the stimulus to the point where job growth has been thrown under the bus. Yet where have they given ground?

From a scientist perspective- it's very hard to argue with someone who has faith. The climate change argument illustrates this perfectly- it's the modern day version of the Scopes monkey trial. The science on climate change is quite clear-although the future is hard to predict other than increasing global temperatures. But we're still debating what are now accepted scientific fact- rather than discussing what to do.

Note- the one thing in recent days where I agreed with the Senate Repubs- time to cut back spending on "security".


Sam

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:16:20 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I also think it is easy to imagine this romanticized past where people got along with civility, when we have had riots, violent protests, going back to the 1960s. There was a time when segregationalists blocked the path of Black students trying to go to class. There were fights over wars. There was the KKK... I mean we fought a Civil War because shit couldn't be hammered out.

There was a time during FDR's time when the monied interests called him a "class traitor" for implementing the New Deal, and did everything they could up until present day to undermine it....

So, while we have less civility in some ways, I do not know if this is a new thing, or if it is just exacerbated by the internet and the perception that the average person lacks civility with his fellow citizen

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:23:31 PM   
slvemike4u


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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		While I did place the demarcation point in the 60's due in large part to the very issues you listed Julia...your point concerning FDR is indeed valid.....hell I have seen posters here decry Roosevelt and his policies as if he was the devil himself.....and I seriously doubt these particular posters even lived during his Presidency !

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:24:30 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		If you could see what kinds of things the Founding Fathers said about their opponents,it wouldn`t make today`s tenor seem so bad.

They were just as vicious at times as some pols are today.


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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:26:38 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Certainly Hamilton/Adams v Jefferson/Madison was a tag team match for the ages.....imagine that vitriol taking place in today's environment.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 6/12/2011 7:27:15 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:31:50 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		For real intelligent debate the debate must be among those who have done their own objective research and formed their own untainted conclusions thus bringing some real substance to the issues being debated.

Real intelligent debate is not from among those who try to debate the issue as if automatically there is a right wing repub 'conservative or left wing dem liberal cause or effect. All too often even after such objective debate get to real technical issues, far too many would still take that and try to give a right/left cause.

Too much is what's right and left in the political world is thus ascribed as the cause of past problem whereas in truth...it is just an attempt to denigrate either side.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:38:31 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Certainly Hamilton/Adams v Jefferson/Madison was a tag team match for the ages.....imagine that vitriol taking place in today's environment.



Jefferson's sex scandals made Weiner's look like a teen boy practicing (although to be honest, my sex scandals make Weiner's look like a teen boy practicing)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:41:12 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Jeffersons scandals....how about Hamilton who carried on an affair for years....even bribing the cuckolded husband to remain silent about it ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:41:36 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		There are actually many many more things liberals and conservatives can agree on and work together on than not.



Perhaps it`s because of that that real discussions don`t happen often.If you`re that similar,one must pick at the frivolous and superficial rather than the substantive differences.



I wonder if the founding fathers ever envisioned the government they created would one day be depicted as a liberty gobbling monster,scapegoated by a political party trying to scare votes outta folks?


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/12/2011 7:42:02 PM >

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:43:05 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Jeffersons scandals....how about Hamilton who carried on an affair for years....even bribing the cuckolded husband to remain silent about it ?



Franklin was a walking sex scandal

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:46:21 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Nah...he was just a cuddly old man who woman found,for some unfathomable reason,irresistible.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:49:46 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Nah...he was just a cuddly old man who woman found,for some unfathomable reason,irresistible.



He was a member of the Hell Fire Club in England that was like a BDSM club of its day, or maybe a swingers club would be more accurate.. known for orgies and other debauchery (damn I love that word, "debauchery")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:52:55 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		That's a fact....but still a cuddly old man.....lol.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 7:54:06 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Well the two are not mutually exclusive... he was also one of the first feminists in this country.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 8:05:25 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Woman simply loved the man.Adams was livid with rage at what he felt was Franklins hedonistic lifestyle while serving in France.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 8:06:38 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		FR to the OP

The lack of intelligence in your post and your feeble attempt to sound even handed should answer your own question.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 6/12/2011 8:07:03 PM >

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 8:08:08 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Woman simply loved the man.Adams was livid with rage at what he felt was Franklins hedonistic lifestyle while serving in France.



Because women were not allowed to conduct commerce back in that time, he had a practice of putting certain businesses in his name that were owned by widows and unmarriageable women so that they could provide a living for themselves. He tried to get the law changed so that women could own property, too.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 8:21:47 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		I did not know that.....nice.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 9:03:34 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

I also think it is easy to imagine this romanticized past where people got along with civility, when we have had riots, violent protests, going back to the 1960s.


What a red herring. And what romanticized past? I lived through that stuff, and will never forget it.

What I SAID was that Dems and Pubs sat down and hammered out differences. Today, moderates are run out of the party.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: What ever happened to REAL INTELLIGENT Political de... - 6/12/2011 9:03:43 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I found nothing in your analysis I could disagree with. I think there will be better political debate when the American people become involved in politics and vote for better politicians who have not been corrupted by money. As well, people need to take back their political parties. The Republican Party as we all know has been taken over by Christian extremists. I'm not sure who controls the Democratic Party but I know unions don't have the influence they used to. Without unions there would be no middle class. Both parties are corrupted by money - Republicans 100% and Democrats 65%. If the middle class and the poor want better results so money doesn't trickle to the top they need to become informed, educated and involved in politics.

I'd like to see progressives in the Democratic Party leave and join with Bernie Sanders to form a new progressive party. They can start by working with the unions that provide the party money. And if they can't do that they should become more aggressive and take their party back getting rid of people like Sen. Ben Nelson from Nebraska of cornhusker kickback fame (what a slimeball). I'm not interested in The Heretic’s idea of working with the other side asked cuts to Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are unacceptable. The more intelligent Democrats are the progressive liberals.

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