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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 11:29:36 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Doms/Tops are using scenes as a way to get away with beating up women


I'm afraid the above is all too true in some cases...I think we would be sticking our heads in the sand if we refused to acknowledge the prevalence of mental illness in the lifestyle.

No sane person will eat shit…stick needles through their balls…sew up their cunts…allow blood to be draw from a whip…on and on.

No… many in the lifestyle have real problems even if they themselves don’t admit to them.

Myself I’m ok with my mental illnesses…or perhaps I should say my deviation from the norm…but I don’t fool myself into thinking I am normal.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/16/2011 11:30:46 AM >

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 11:43:47 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

frankly, a chemical overload tends to have a "coming down;" that's really all subdrop usually is


Coming down from physical and mental exertion is relaxing in the normal person... but your mental state can turn relaxation to depression.

Butch

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 11:45:03 AM   
myotherself


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Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		I don't consider myself to be "normal" in many ways.

But I don't consider the adrenalin rush I get from pain play to be any more a mental illness than the adrenalin rush someone else gets from black run skiing, or sky-diving.



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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 11:46:26 AM   
Moonhead


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No, it doesn't. Just another invention the weal and twue lot have come up with to pretend that they're better than everybody else doing this shit.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 11:55:05 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		The deviation from the normal culture is one of the very definitions of mental illness...but as in everything there are degrees or levels of this deviation that most all of us would call sick.

I certainly am not claiming we should all be committed…well except for moonhead…...but the vast majority of the so called normal community would look at your perversion and call it mental illness.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/16/2011 11:57:26 AM >

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 12:34:47 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

frankly, a chemical overload tends to have a "coming down;" that's really all subdrop usually is


Coming down from physical and mental exertion is relaxing in the normal person... but your mental state can turn relaxation to depression.

Butch


I have done some serious hiking in my life. The pain I have felt from pushing my body in this way is similar to subspace (not exactly the same, but there is a sense of euphoria at exceeding certain physical limits). I am often tired for several days after an extreme hike. My muscles are sore, etc. I may even feel a little "down". Would most people think this is a mental illness?


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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 12:54:36 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You could have one though don't you think? You do know some people push their bodies until they injure them to continually attain that exercise induced high...They could very well have a mental illness.

But you and I both know there is a difference. I would not dream of saying anyone is mentally ill but I would feel safe in saying there is a much larger percent of people mentally ill in this lifestyle then the general population. Before you ask for proof it is just my opinion but I believe that opinion is based on solid common sense.

Butch


_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 1:03:56 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You could have one though don't you think? You do know some people push their bodies until they injure them to continually attain that exercise induced high...They could very well have a mental illness.

But you and I both know there is a difference. I would not dream of saying anyone is mentally ill but I would feel safe in saying there is a much larger percent of people mentally ill in this lifestyle then the general population. Before you ask for proof it is just my opinion but I believe that opinion is based on solid common sense.

Butch



When talking about people being mentally ill, it is best not to use your common sense. There is a reason people do studies to determine risks and potentials for mental illness, because it is hard to measure

Reaching altered states of consciousness is nothing new. Animals will eat fermented fruit to get drunk on it, cats like catnip, etc etc etc.

Have you ever seen a child spin around to induce themselves into dizziness? What do you think that is about?


An activity or substance is only a dysfunctional on a disorder level if it interferes with your ability to function in ways that hamper your work and personal relationships. If your perversions are not getting in the way of your life, and you are happy and satisfied with your life, you are probably okay.

My kinkiness does not hamper my relationships with my family and friends. I am a happy person. I do not feel as though I would sacrifice things that are important to myself for it. And under those criteria, I feel pretty safe that my relationship to kink isn't unhealthy for me. As far as the mental health of other kinky people as compared to the average person...well...

"Average people" have food addictions, shopping addictions, gambling issues, depression issues, OCD issues... etc etc etc. I see kink as just one more way people can express a dysfunctional relationship to a substance or activity...

Others can disagree, but until I see a study I will take that opinion with a grain of salt.


_____________________________

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 1:08:02 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OwnedFemaleFlesh
Interestingly, 'sub drop' only seems to affect women (I'm totally willing to be wrong about that, but I've never heard male submissives talking about it) and only submissives (although seemingly brought on by s&m play scenes, it seems to be submissives rather than masochists who suffer from it).


Sub drop is quite a real and potentially profound biochemical and neurological reaction to the extremes of adrenaline, endorphin, oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine, etc, which can come into play during an intense BDSM scene.  Since I only play with male submissives, I'd have to say that it definitely isn't limited to females. 


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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 1:09:18 PM   
imber67


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Status: offline 		Sub drop most definitely does exist! Boy does it ever!

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 1:13:05 PM   
myotherself


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From: The cold bit of the UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The deviation from the normal culture is one of the very definitions of mental illness...but as in everything there are degrees or levels of this deviation that most all of us would call sick.

I certainly am not claiming we should all be committed…well except for moonhead…...but the vast majority of the so called normal community would look at your perversion and call it mental illness.

Butch


It depends what you define as 'normal culture'.

Move from country to country and you will find that cultural norms are very specific to a particular place.

I myself am not normal in many vanilla ways. I have a higher IQ than the norm, I'm equally talented mathematically and linguistically, I have poorer coordination than the norm...does that make me mentally ill?



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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 6:15:42 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I myself am not normal in many vanilla ways. I have a higher IQ than the norm, I'm equally talented mathematically and linguistically, I have poorer coordination than the norm...does that make me mentally ill?



Nope...you are trying to make general comments fit your situation... that is not the purpose of my posts... Can you tell me some of the kink you see here on CM is not abnormal and the result of mental illness? If you do then we have very different views on mental health and what is normal in this lifestyle.

As I said I believe I have a mental illness... it is harmless... does not hurt any body and is no ones business but my own...This is the case of many here on CM at least when compared to the " normal society" It does not make us bad people in any way.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to myotherself)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 6:31:11 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I myself am not normal in many vanilla ways. I have a higher IQ than the norm, I'm equally talented mathematically and linguistically, I have poorer coordination than the norm...does that make me mentally ill?



Nope...you are trying to make general comments fit your situation... that is not the purpose of my posts... Can you tell me some of the kink you see here on CM is not abnormal and the result of mental illness? If you do then we have very different views on mental health and what is normal in this lifestyle.

As I said I believe I have a mental illness... it is harmless... does not hurt any body and is no ones business but my own...This is the case of many here on CM at least when compared to the " normal society" It does not make us bad people in any way.

Butch


Here is what I know, what is considered mentally ill is a cultural construct. In fact, in some places the mentally ill are seen to be special people imbued with supernatural powers...

I think in some ways the things I have learned about how people live around the world has freed me of the judgments I used to level at myself and others. I realize my view is based on a cultural construct that I was born into. I do not think much of what happens in relationship to sexuality and kinks is "mental illness".

I have a very specific view of what mental illness is, and that is a behavior or pattern of thinking that leads to living in a dysfunctional way. I have a definition of dysfunctional too, dysfunctional means that a behavior or pattern of thinking is interfering with the productivity of your life, and hampering your interpersonal relationships. I would agree, if your kink is interfering in your life, and hampering your interpersonal relationships... you have a burgeoning mental illness going on.

If on the other hand, this is how you express your sexuality, and you are living in harmony, working, etc... it ain't a mental illness... even under the DSM standards

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 6:39:36 PM   
angelikaJ


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Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Doms/Tops are using scenes as a way to get away with beating up women


I'm afraid the above is all too true in some cases...I think we would be sticking our heads in the sand if we refused to acknowledge the prevalence of mental illness in the lifestyle.

No sane person will eat shit…stick needles through their balls…sew up their cunts…allow blood to be draw from a whip…on and on.

No… many in the lifestyle have real problems even if they themselves don’t admit to them.

Myself I’m ok with my mental illnesses…or perhaps I should say my deviation from the norm…but I don’t fool myself into thinking I am normal.

Butch


Masochism and sadism are being removed from the newest edition of the DSM.

My last psychiatrist (who treated me for depression) had no concerns over my BDSM activities what-so-ever.
Neither does my current therapist, nor does my regular physician.

I can not judge the normality of other people's kink.

I get subdrop. It has nothing to do with guilt.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 6:41:56 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		But does it matter what we think? It is the majority that determines what is mental illness and what is not... But one more time would you not agree some rather common kink here on CM is and should be designated a mental illness... If not by name then by actions?

I think there is and it is much more prevalent in this life style then the general population.

Here is another opinion without proof but it is an opinion I have come to over time here in the message boards. I believe depression is more common in the lifestyle then the general population...and I believe this depression manifests itself as sub drop.

I am just expressing opinion for discussion not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 6:45:02 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Guilt may not have been the best word to use...but often the scene is an escape from personal problems that return when the scene is over.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 6:46:30 PM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		i think there are SOME people who use BDSM for all sorts of things. but i don't consider myself mentally ill; the typical definition of "sane" doesn't really fit the majority of normal people if you ever looked at them 100% honestly. that's why a lot of the typical definitions are being expanded because, in modern times, we're allowing ourselves to be a bit more honest.
there are plenty of mentally ill people living plain-jane "normal" lives in vanilla land -- mental illness exists in BDSM because mental illness exists in human beings, and human beings sometimes like BDSM. =p humans also walk dogs, go to the beach, make pizzas, wash cars, so mental illness exists there, also.

subdrop is not at all about guilt for me (and trust me, i KNOW guilt). it's simply the response to chemicals and emotions; nearly every chemical experience is accompanied by a low of some kind. like i said earlier, it's like the sugar high and accompanying crash. that's all it is. i think you're reading too far into people's accounts of subdrop and how much of their life is being affected. if i eat a candy bar, flip out, and then fall asleep for an hour, would you consider that "hampering my life?" and yet the cause-effect relationship is clearly established and mental illness doesn't even factor in. subdrop is similar.


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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 6:48:52 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But does it matter what we think? It is the majority that determines what is mental illness and what is not... But one more time would you not agree some rather common kink here on CM is and should be designated a mental illness... If not by name then by actions?

I think there is and it is much more prevalent in this life style then the general population.

Here is another opinion without proof but it is an opinion I have come to over time here in the message boards. I believe depression is more common in the lifestyle then the general population...and I believe this depression manifests itself as sub drop.

I am just expressing opinion for discussion not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Butch


Depression is common everywhere, and again, I do not think it has anything to do with sexual kinks. I think you would be more accurate to say that people who post a lot on the internet are depressed more than others, than to say kinky people are depressed more than others. I have been depressed in my life, not medicated for it or anything, but depressed nonetheless. I have been kinky my entire life, depressed a small fraction of it.

I get that it is "only an opinion", but I think we should base opinions about others on some sort of fact. I also think that opinions about yourself are fine, opinions about how my internal life is, not so much.

Having been through only one notable case of subdrop, and by that, I mean something lasting more than a few minutes that was not ameliorated by a little aftercare, I would not say it is a big deal. I was not pushed into a sea of depression over it. Other people might have different experiences than me, but many DO have the same sort of experiences I do.

I haven't been played with that hard in quite awhile, my masochism doesn't dictate my relationships as much as my submissiveness, but it is something I would love to have the opportunity to engage in again...kinda like I would love to hike the John Muir Trail one day.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 6:50:29 PM   
angelikaJ


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Status: offline 		No, depression is depression.

Subdrop is something else.

Subdrop can feel a bit like depression but it does not last.



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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/16/2011 6:53:17 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Guilt may not have been the best word to use...but often the scene is an escape from personal problems that return when the scene is over.

Butch


just like any other diversion? like going to the amusement park? like going for a drive in the country? a scene isn't any more loaded than anything else people do for recreation.
depression is a prolonged feeling of sadness that lasts longer than the brief blip of time that subdrop lasts. again, i think you're reading WAY too far into this -- or you're subconsiously airing your own issues by applying them to other people.


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