RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist?

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 12:27:33 PM

crazyml

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Hey LP,

I'm completely in agreement with you that we have to be super careful not to label things that aren't "our kink" as "wrong" or "mad", but at the same time... I do think that the BDSM community attracts a higher proportion of people with mental illness than, say, a yoga class would.

When you say...

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
If we're going to look at activities to determine mental illness, basing it on the premise that *if* it can maim, injure, or kill that competency falls into question, you'd better lock up everybody who enjoys skydiving right now. Also skiing, swimming, mountain bike riding, horse-riding, people who enjoy roller coasters, snowmobiling, and any other that involves risk.

I think the question is one of actual risk, surely? Sure, all of the activities that you list have an element of risk - just as many of the activities that BDSM'ers indulge in do. The level of risk might not be my cup of tea (The only time you'll ever see me leap from a plane is if the thing is on fire, for example) but I'll defend a person's right to do it. But there are some activities that I'd assume were more than just a sign of "quirkiness" or an overly developed need for an adrenalin high.

Having one's leg sawn off... to give an extreme example.

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Post #: 101

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 12:29:52 PM

crazyml

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Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

quote:

Does 'sub drop' actually exist?

Yes, it does. So does dom drop. You get those endorphins flying, you can crash. This isn't any mystical emotional BS, it's biology.

Completely agree

You could also list "post Triathalon drop" for an athlete, "post performance drop" for a singer.

I get "conference presentation drop" after I've spoken to a large crowd.

Pretty much anything that demands an intensity of mental and or physical effort can induce a "drop".

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Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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Post #: 102

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 12:33:21 PM

kdsub

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quote:

No, I don't see mental illness in activities. Mental illness is among some folks who participate in them

Your statement is the absolute truth but in my opinion the lifestyle draws mentally ill people for the wrong reasons and they are more prevalent as a percentage then in the so called vanilla world.. Again it is just an opinion.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 103

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 12:45:58 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a difference between people who cut themselves...eat feces...hang themselves …on and on and people who just want a thrill. But even thrill seekers can pursue their desires to the point of being mentally ill.

I don't think disagreeing with a point of view equates to defensiveness. I simply think think none of us, without being licensed clinicians who have had in depth discussion with the assumed-to-be-mentally-ill party are equipped to make a determination about someone's state of mental health, accurately.

I repeat what I said before - without knowing someone's motivation behind an act, one simply is not in a position to decide another's mental state while performing that act. Otherwise you may as well go along with the concept that kneeling is a submissive act and being on top while fucking is a dominant act.

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Post #: 104

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 12:46:27 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

No, I don't see mental illness in activities. Mental illness is among some folks who participate in them

Your statement is the absolute truth but in my opinion the lifestyle draws mentally ill people for the wrong reasons and they are more prevalent as a percentage then in the so called vanilla world.. Again it is just an opinion.

Butch

I think it has an attraction to people that are not quite as based in reality as they should be, of course it's easier to hide in an environment where things that aren't normal are more widely accepted, that goes for both sides of the kneel, but I think that most lasting relationships are quite as healthy as vanilla relationships. You just hear more about the mentally ill ones because if something happens and BDSM is involved, it makes spectacular headlines.

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Those who do and those who don't!

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Post #: 105

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 1:06:40 PM

ranja

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a difference between people who cut themselves...eat feces...hang themselves …on and on

where do i sit? i stuck a pin through my mouth... as you can see... i do think i'm rather mad but how much exactly?
should we use LP's measuring stick?

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 106

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 1:20:21 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Hey LP,

I'm completely in agreement with you that we have to be super careful not to label things that aren't "our kink" as "wrong" or "mad", but at the same time... I do think that the BDSM community attracts a higher proportion of people with mental illness than, say, a yoga class would.

If it helps, I think it might be easier to hide a mental illness or issue among those of us involved in wiitwd. Considering those who aren't on the kinky side of the fence have an explanation or term for just about anything kink related if you look for it. In individuals, I can certainly see why they apply at times. Some Doms really are obsessive control freaks. Some subs really just do have co-dependency issues. Some sadists really are just abusive. What some would call catharsis, others would call covering emotional pain with physical pain.

The fact that these issues are easier to fly under the radar here may create a greater appeal, but since there's just no way to know statistically, the best we'll ever get on this is an opinion. My own boy, due to his personal perception, tends to believe that we attract a greater number of folks with ADHD as well as those with PTSD. It's nothing that either side of the opinion can prove in any way about kinky folks as a whole, so it's conjecture on both sides of the fence.

quote:

I think the question is one of actual risk, surely? Sure, all of the activities that you list have an element of risk - just as many of the activities that BDSM'ers indulge in do. The level of risk might not be my cup of tea (The only time you'll ever see me leap from a plane is if the thing is on fire, for example) but I'll defend a person's right to do it. But there are some activities that I'd assume were more than just a sign of "quirkiness" or an overly developed need for an adrenalin high.

Having one's leg sawn off... to give an extreme example.

I'm actually with you on the plane jumping bit, but that has everything to do with My own personal opinions. I'm not exactly big on heights.

As to the extremes, I think we have to look at it like any other bell curve. The number of folks who actually *do* cut their leg off are how many? Oddly enough, the only time I've been exposed to anybody who has actually done it was on the Jerry Springer show. (I'm completely serious about that.) Kink was never mentioned once.

ETA - For those who thought I pulled that out of My ass, here's the link.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtxGgAbOw9Io&rct=j&q=jerry%20springer%20man%20with%20no%20legs&ei=F7f7Tcu-BMzWiALpp4n5BA&usg=AFQjCNFgb00MO1CixRwyGj6svw61N_0qmg&cad=rja

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 6/17/2011 1:21:35 PM >

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Post #: 107

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 1:55:06 PM

LillyBoPeep

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the one voluntary amputee i saw was on one of those "real stories from the ER" shows. a guy cut off his hand and then came to the hospital to ask them to stitch up his stump. they had a psychiatrist examine him and because it was discovered that he had a VERY serious amputee fetish, they thought it best to leave the hand off rather than re-attach it, because the likelihood that he'd cut it off again was too high.
though honestly i'd be worried that he'd then cut off the other hand, or his feet, or something like that.

i do think there is a greater likelihood to run into some malformed personalities because they can cover their real intentions for something with something else that sounds kink-friendly. =p but like LadyPact said, there's no real way to confirm that, it's just an opinion. even though i believe that, though, i would rather think that mental illness comes from the people in the activity, rather than the activity itself.

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Post #: 108

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 5:26:05 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

No, I don't see mental illness in activities. Mental illness is among some folks who participate in them

Your statement is the absolute truth but in my opinion the lifestyle draws mentally ill people for the wrong reasons and they are more prevalent as a percentage then in the so called vanilla world.. Again it is just an opinion.

Butch

I disagree. I think you hear more about people's diagnosed issues because you have to mention them when negotiating play to prevent bad outcomes.

When you don't need to be self aware, you're less likely to have a diagnosis. Which does not at all mean you don't have the illness.

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Post #: 109

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 7:26:11 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No I am saying the two cannot be separated in all circumstances... ask your psychiatrist if all relationships in our lifestyle are healthy.

You see I am not excluding any possibility for good or bad… healthy or unhealthy…sane or mentally ill…you are.

Butch

As I said earlier, there are many activities that people do to unhealthy extremes, and BDSM is one of them, but that can be said about a lot of activities... like gambling, drinking, working to excess, etc etc etc.

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 110

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 7:28:44 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

No, I don't see mental illness in activities. Mental illness is among some folks who participate in them

Your statement is the absolute truth but in my opinion the lifestyle draws mentally ill people for the wrong reasons and they are more prevalent as a percentage then in the so called vanilla world.. Again it is just an opinion.

Butch

And again, you should not believe everything you think

I am not saying this in defensiveness, I am saying this as someone who researches and has to prove things like this with actual data collection... it is unethical to make such claims based upon your opinion.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 111

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 7:38:54 PM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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I have always said it was opinion...and as such, unless you can provide proof otherwise, it is as good as yours or any other... It is not unethical as long as I stipulate it as opinion and I have at every instance… Those repudiating my opinion are using their opinion, just as you have in past posts, and they and you and I have every right to do so.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/17/2011 7:40:11 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 112

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/17/2011 8:02:20 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I have always said it was opinion...and as such, unless you can provide proof otherwise, it is as good as yours or any other... It is not unethical as long as I stipulate it as opinion and I have at every instance… Those repudiating my opinion are using their opinion, just as you have in past posts, and they and you and I have every right to do so.

Butch

Here is my problem with that statement. I could say playing baseball leads to cancer, and then you say "why you say that?" and then I say "its just an opinion"

Sounds pretty strange, doesn't it? That is how you sound to me. Not that you should care, because it is just my opinion, but I think your opinion is not based on sound logical thinking or the scientific method... in fact I can actually prove it isn't.

In my line of work if I said such things I would be laughed at. And I suppose I should be more patient with laypeople, but at the same time it is hard to be because you are furthering a myth that has caused many people actual pain from being discriminated against and vilified. On that level I am slightly "defensive" about it.... it took kinky folks many years to have our fun taken off the DSM as being some sort of mental illness. People used to be locked up for what we do in loony houses.

We live in a repressed country where gay people are still perceived to either be mentally ill or demon possessed, for crying out loud... and that used to be in the DSM as a mental illness too.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 113

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/18/2011 9:25:16 AM

kdsub

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Let me say this… baseball can lead to cancer…remember steroids…lol… But…being ganged up on has forced me to reconsider my assumptions and spend a little time researching.

I must say I was surprised to find that since the 1980’s the way doctors think of classic BDSM has changed. Where once it was considered a mental illness it is no longer looked at that way as long as those participating do not allow it to interfere with their everyday functioning to the point of becoming an obsession...yea like that never happens.

Many sites state there is little proof that mental illness is more prevalent in the classic lifestyle then the general population although there have been no specific studies on the subject.…There is an increase in mental illness in the lifestyle however when it comes to dealing with the prejudice from the general populace but not BDSM itself.

So the bottom line is when it comes to classic BDSM as most here ascribe to it I was DEAD wrong in my opinion.

However…I don’t believe some of the practices used in the name of BDSM which I listed earlier can be practiced with a sound mind… Damn it… it is my opinion and I’m stickin to it.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/18/2011 9:51:06 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 114

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/18/2011 9:35:18 AM

velvetears

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"more akin to an LSD flashback taking place hours, days or even weeks after a scene, party or other BDSM episode, and involving tears, tantrums, depression, feelings of jealousy and paranoia, self-harm and violent or irrational behaviour that can last from a few hours up to several weeks, and often requiring time off work. All of which requires a Dom who not only totally accepts and understands this behaviour, but is on hand to pamper the submissive in every way possible. "

I don't think this is subdrop, this is more the reactions of a submissive who is unstable in some sort of way, emotionally, physically/chemically. I have had mild subdrop feelings but i would think if one was going to experience it it would follow the scene pretty closely and not involve, especially self harm, violent or irrational behavior. That just wouldn't make sense, if you're going to react that strongly don't play.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/18/2011 9:56:47 AM

catize

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quote:

if you're going to react that strongly don't play.

but that would be too......logical!

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Post #: 116

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/18/2011 10:26:58 AM

juliaoceania

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Thank you for looking into it and changing your opinion based upon better information. I admire people who are willing to do that, and try to do that myself.

quote:

Where once it was considered a mental illness it is no longer looked at that way as long as those participating do not allow it to interfere with their everyday functioning to the point of becoming an obsession...yea like that never happens.

They have a couple of really interesting shows on subjects like OCD and Hoarding on television right now. If you have netflix, you could probably stream them. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder has nothing to do with the activity itself, there are some people obsessed with their teeth, some obsessed with ritual behaviors, others that are obsessed with handwashing... and I would hardly think that handwashing in and of itself is somehow an activity that draws obsessives... and yet, it is one of the most COMMON obsessive activities out there (germaphobes).

I think ANYTHING can turn into an obsession, which is more about the individual brain chemistry than it is about what the person is actually doing.

I do think that people who are self destructive may become attracted to WIITWD, Some people, like cutters, etc, may use sadomasochism to act out destructive feelings. I do not think that should be confused with having a fetish or enjoying pain...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 117

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/18/2011 2:14:32 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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Thursday night we played and it was rough on me. I cried then and since Friday was stressful as hell, I wound up breaking down then too. I rarely break into tears. However me being down and teary was in no way a PTSD flashback. It didn't mean he had to cater to me the whole damned day either. He did have to stop at the rest stop on the way home, but I don't consider that an overwhelming imposition and it's more catering to the fact that at 56 my bladder will not be denied.

Oh yeah, and he bought me a chocolate bar later on because I was still pretty shaky. He had one too.

It was subdrop plain and simple. It does not mean I'm unstable and need to be signed into 72 hours in the local psych ward.

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Post #: 118

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/18/2011 4:14:20 PM

OwnedFemaleFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

if you're going to react that strongly don't play.

but that would be too......logical!

The post that triggered this one, was from a submissive who suffered the symptoms I described. Her Dom now did not want to play with her because he didn't want to have to go through this reaction everytime. She was insisting that it was her right to be played with, even though it would lead to days or weeks of melodrama. Everyone replying on that thread seemed to agree with her that he was a selfish, callous, inconsiderate bastard who needed to step up and give 'aftercare', no matter how long or how much energy this took. It seems so tiresome. If I was a Dom, I would want my play to make people happy and content, if it doesn't, then what is the point?

To clarify, I do get a brief, immediate reaction after play - quite simply, I fall asleep for approx 20-45 minutes. And then I wake up, and feel great. Playing wears you out, and I have no issue with believing that this is responsible for the feelings of tiredness, wanting a blanket or to be snuggled, etc.. But if your play is leading to feelings of sadness, depression, loneliness the next day, or even after, that this can't be explained by a simple physical, biological, chemical reaction to play, and is more likely to be an emotional response to play, life circumstances or relationship issues you have with the person you are playing with.

As regards BDSM and mental issues, I believe that psychiatry is based less on medical / physical symptoms and more on a judgmental consideration of what society considers 'normal'. Since these considerations are almost inevitably right wing and reactionary, so is much of what is considered mental illness. Many years ago, homosexuality, female desire, oral sex and the desire of black people not to be slaves were all 'mental illnesses' In a 100 years time we will consider much of what is considered mental illness now to be cruel oppressive nonsense. I therefore have *absolutely no interest* in what psychiatry might have to say about me or anyone else, I make up my own mind about people and myself.

If people are melodramatic or attention seeking after play, then that is most likely because they are unsuited for s&m. There's nothing that says everyone can do what we do, or that everyone will react positively to it, or even just be made happy by it. Some people will be made miserable, some people will go through emotional hell. Of course, that is their choice, and the choice of their partners to tolerate this response. But I do not believe that this is a normal, healthy or expected part of s&m, and I certainly do not think it can be explained by 'sub drop'.

owned xxx

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 119

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/18/2011 4:29:31 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I find your post very ironic... on a few levels...

First, I think that some people are incompatible with each other on their needs, and if a dominant finds a submissive too "needy" he should find someone who is more compatible. If the submissive finds her needs are not being met, she has the responsibility to find someone who meets her needs. There is no right or wrong here, it is just people who do not belong together trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. Now, sometimes incompatibilities can be compensated for, but if you are asking random people on the internet about your issues, chances are there isn't enough respect there to sustain a relationship anyways.

The second part of your post is basically saying "Since I do not feel or react like you do, you are full of shit, or otherwise less than me"... I am sooo very happy for you that you have never experienced severe drop. Maybe you don't have the PHYSICAL reaction that other people have to such play. It does not make their relationships unstable, it does not mean they are emotionally unstable, etc etc etc, because they may have a drop that extends into the next day. It does not mean that because someone has this happen to them once, that it will happen every time they play.

And that leads me to the ironic part of your post.... you claim that the way you are should not be judged by society, when in just the previous paragraph you judged people because they are not like you...

I am used to seeing hypocrisy from people on forums like this, just not in the same damn post, congratulations.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/18/2011 4:31:18 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to OwnedFemaleFlesh)

Post #: 120

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