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juliaoceania -> RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? (6/24/2011 8:39:33 AM)
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Is it well documented that this happens during s&m? I think not. You can choose to *believe* that your theories apply to s&m, but you should be aware that this does not constitute *proof*. Of course, if there are researchers who have carried out work into the hormonal states during and post s&m play, and the observed effects on participants' behaviour then I would love to read their work. But taking one lot of research and claiming as a fact that it applies to other, dissimilar areas is pure speculation, and unscientific.
I am not out to write a scientific paper here, I am not out to get published.
You have several people on this thread who are not mentally ill, drama queens, who are experienced at bottoming, and who have experienced emotional/physical reactions to play. I have presented information about how neurochemicals can impact a person, and hormones also... such as adrenaline and Dopamine... some think endorphins are involved too. You have experienced some physical reactions to play yourself, yet deny that chemicals get dumped in your blood? Now you are just being stubborn to protect your position instead of acknowledging that you might possibly be wrong.
I have so very little respect for people who doggedly hold on to incorrect positions even when someone has pointed out alternative views, and information to support those views. It is true that there has never been a study on subspace... that does not mean there isn't an extant reality that those of us that have played this way get a physical/emotional high from it... brought on by neurochemicals. These chemicals impact different people in differing ways. They stay in the system like any other substance that courses through our bloodstream does.
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you completely fabricated it, it couldn't have been more of a misquote. I stated:
Let me define the world "seemed" for you, maybe you do not know what it means
1. Give the impression or sensation of being something or having a particular quality: "Dawn seemed annoyed".
2. Used to make a statement or description of one's thoughts, feelings, or actions less assertive or forceful. More »
You gave me the personal impression... now you can make it sound as though I "lied" about you, but most people who understand English know what a personal impression is.
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Constant crying, feeling worthless, useless, feeling absolutely unable to carry out vital daily activities such as feeding, bathing, working, caring for one's children, etc.
That is not the clinical definition of depression...such a person may be depressed, but they may have some sort of psychosis going on as well. Having difficulty living life for a few days because of feeling blue and down is different than "will not get out of bed". I think you may need to familiarize yourself with depression, and what it is and how it manifests itself... which is a continuum.
If you know a bunch of subs that will not leave their room for 2 weeks because of play, I would be very surprised and wonder what social circles you run in. How do you know they cannot function at all? Do they tell you they can't? Or do you assume that when they say "I get depressed for a few days" you make the assumption that they are hiding in their rooms crying constantly?
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Actually it is *you* who is lumping a large range of reactions together, which makes your opinion irrelevant, defensive and emotional. You seem unable to focus on the fact that what I am describing are *serious* negative reactions to play. To suggest that I have some issue with people feeling sore or tired afterwards is just another fabrication on your part.
Actually I was extending the symptoms to include some of the ones I have felt for less than a week following not only sub drop, but the car accident I was in. They are also the symptoms my former dom would exhibit when we was teaching self defense classes a lot, because he would get a lot of adrenaline in his system that he could not dissipate in blood stream... they are also some of the symptoms of depression... I was not trying to trip you up, what I was trying to do was to elicit some sort of baseline to judge where you are coming from, because you do not seem to understand sub drop very well, nor the human response to stress...
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If they are already raw feelings, then this proves my point that what is being reacted to is a relationship issue, rather than a biological reaction to play.
You really believe that human beings run around with these completely separate states of being... our emotions, mental states, and our bodies are completely disconnected in your mind... they aren't. Being out of whack in one area can cause a person to perceive the world differently than they might otherwise do.
As in the dopamine study, the young man had no previous history of mental illness, and yet, when his brain was stimulated to dump lots of dopamine, he had a reaction to that...I know you reject dopamine drop as a part of sub drop, but that is not why I am bringing it up. I am bringing it up because it is an example of the FACT that human beings are impacted emotionally by their hormonal and chemical states. We cannot be separated into neat categories.
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If it's a normal mental state that anyone can experience, then it's not sub-drop is it? I am talking about a noticeable reaction to the physical stresses of play. If you are talking about fluctuating mental states that anyone can go through then we are not even on the same page.
I cannot believe you even stated this. There are many mental states that are similar to each other, they are brought on by different stimuli. When we talk about sub drop we could be talking about adrenaline drop, or dopamine drop, or endorphin drop. It could be a soup of a bunch of neurochemicals and hormones. We do not know. We we can say from experience is that many people get high and fly from BDSM activities (some from pain, some from fear, and some from intense stimuli). I can tell you my experiences varied depending on the activity..and this suggested to me that different neurochemicals maybe involved causing different physical states.
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I have no idea what that even is since it isn't something we do at school here, and I actually have no interest. I can tell that you are unskilled in doing and analysing qualitative research since you keep misquoting me and then getting reactionary and defensive about my opinion, but I'm not really interested in what you have and haven't studied because it isn't relevant to the debate about whether sub drop has gotten out of hand as a BDSM phenomena.
I am not defensive... I am just not going to let it pass when people get all judgmental on others (and btw, I am not talking about me since my sub drop experiences are in my mind fairly mild) just because you witnessed people at a few play parties reacting in ways you think make them mentally ill or attention seeking.
I also will reiterate, someone who has no background in psych labeling others has mentally ill based on being down for a few days tells me you do not know your ass from a hole in the ground and you should be seeking to judge who can and who cannot play on your very limited experience with depression... you did not even define it properly.
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If people engage in play that is not safe and not sane then I have the right to be concerned about that. If people have such a severe reaction to s&m that they consider taking their own life, then I think we should *all* be concerned about that, and not just brushing it aside saying 'it's just sub-drop, it's consensual, it's none of my business...'
Are you talking about NV on this thread being suicidal? Or do you know other submissives that are suicidal? How many suicidal submissives do you know? I just wanted to understand where this is coming from, because I think you should be concerned about anyone expressing suicide ideation.... especially if they do it every time they play.
On the other hand, many people have suicide ideation that never do a thing about it, it is rather common. I went to a psych workshop where we answered questions and discussed suicide (I was paid by the university to take part in this research) and was shocked by the amount of suicide ideation there is out there. I had no idea that people contemplated offing themselves quite regularly in college.
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You are posting on a BDSM forum which kinksters, vanillas, lawmakers and vulnerable newbies have access to. You speak as if from a position of knowledge and the advice you give has ramifications if vulnerable people choose to take heed of it. You *are* part of the scene, from our viewpoint and from theirs. I can't change what you do, but I can certainly call you out as giving advice which violates SSC, and hopefully other newbies will take heed of that.
I will repeat what mental health professionals say... if you have thoughts of self harm, depression that lasts longer than two weeks, and this depression interferes with things you enjoy, your functioning (desire to function) please seek professional help. Everyone experiences the blues on occasion, especially under physical stress, but if thoughts of suicide become excessive, obsessive, and pervasive, you shouldn't even wait two weeks. If the above fits you, it does not matter if you are a top, a bottom, a submissive, or switch... get help.
And OFF, you should read up on this stuff before posting it... if you think you represent some sort of scene and that people are going to be heeding your words, you should read about the facts of depression, what it is, how it presents itself, and when people should be worrying about being down as a symptom of a chemical imbalance.
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I also find your posts rude and aggressive, there is no need to constantly swear and patronisingly call me dear and honey. I don't think that you have any good arguments to make, and I am going to stop responding to your illogical rants.
I find your posts the same, to be honest... I think the entire concept behind this thread is patronizing and condescending... and i am not the only one.
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