RE: Useful Contracts

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SailingBum -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/14/2011 9:18:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum quote: ORIGINAL: peachgirl quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum My take on a interpersonal for lack of a better word agreement means the 2 or more parties dont trust each other cuz iffin you did there would be no need for a agreement. The OP makes it sound like to borrow 100 bucks from said party you need a agreement with repayment terms late penalty clause ad nausea bull shit. Either I trust you or I dont that simple. Sounds like the OP has some issues BadOne Sorry, I call bullshit on this one. There's nothing wrong with being clear on what you want, it has nothing to do whether or not you trust a person. Whatever....I can very clearly define what I expect from someone without actually have someone type it out and sign it. Are you kidding me??? sheesh BadOne But you are also much older than the OP and her partner in this event. As we gain experience, we learn how to define what we want. Some people's thought process may always not be able to effectively communicate at one time. With a written agreement, they were able to discuss what they planned, and then look it over and see if they forgot anything. While it doesn't work for you, and probably wouldn't be something I would want to do either, it is something that worked well for them. Perhaps only in this instance. Opining that they have issues because something that worked for them wouldn't work for you is pretty stupid. Oh hell yea my IQ is something less than zero....So you play the age card assuming incorrectly i might add that because someone is younger they cannot communicate effectively. Im not sure about you but by the time I was outta high school I had a decent vocabulary. Hell if I remember right I could even string a couple sentences together. So you tell me who the moron is here??? Me for thinking that she has trust issues cuz she has to have a signed fucking contract to get a hair cut REALLLY???? or YOU saying perhaps she cant verbalize the need/ desire, want WhatFuckingEver cuz she is too young. Keep in mind you gotta be over 18 or 21 to log on here. Truly you can't be serious. I got a laff outta your post cuz it was so ridiculous. BadOne

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/14/2011 9:40:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum Either I trust you or I dont that simple. Sounds like the OP has some issues ...did you even read the OP? The contract wasn't for us, it was to show to a DM and other people who were participating in our scene. It wasn't a question of inadequate communication - it was specifically so CS didn't have to communicate with or reassure anyone. Again I find myself questioning your reading comprehension.

SailingBum -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/14/2011 10:11:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum Either I trust you or I dont that simple. Sounds like the OP has some issues ...did you even read the OP? The contract wasn't for us, it was to show to a DM and other people who were participating in our scene. It wasn't a question of inadequate communication - it was specifically so CS didn't have to communicate with or reassure anyone. Again I find myself questioning your reading comprehension. I breezed thru the post saw haircut, contract, DM. In essence the more I read the lamer it got. So I may have skipped over that part. A contract is between the parties that sign it not a third party. Now perhaps if it was some sort of very risky edge play then the DM might need some sort of release, but a hair cut not so much. ppl do that all the time in public barber shops around the world. Why in the world would you think you'd need a contract. So instead of saying to whomever mr smith is gonna cut my hair. You instead have a contract drawn up"to ease the minds of others"??? Does this CS person not speak or sumptin? re the statement I highlited. It a freaking hair cut how much reassurance could anyone over the age of 5 need? I saw the pict someone siting calm in a chair. I suspect my reading skills are fine it's your writing skills that need work. I get my hair cut all the time what in the world would make you think I need a contract??? What the hell am i missing here? BadOne

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/14/2011 10:15:16 PM)
...that she revoked her safeword? You don't think it's worth notifying a DM if you're doing a forced scene with no safeword in an SSC space? Ah, so it's not that you can't read, it's that you won't.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/14/2011 10:18:00 PM)
Also, you might have seen someone sitting in a chair, but the actual reality was a wailing mess being held up off the floor by someone else's not inconsiderable bulk. If you think that a woman being held down and having her head shaved is the same as you going to a hairdresser then I think that you don't understand women very much. <edited because I pressed quote rather than edit.>

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/14/2011 11:17:57 PM)
quote: But you are also much older than the OP and her partner in this event. Hanners and I are both much younger than SailingBum (actually, according to his profile he's twice as old as the two of us combined!!) but we agree with him. We don't have anything written down as a contract. there's a lot of stuff written down that are more like love letters, but I digress. We started out simply as lovers, then went to an M/s set up. When we did that, we didn't really negotiate much either. Hanners told me what she expected and how she saw the relationship functioning. She likes to say I just agreed, but in truth I had a million questions. Once those were all asked and answered, she asked me if I was hers. I answered that I was. That is all we needed. One advantage I see to not having anything written down is the flexibility. We are both doing a lot of growing and changing, both as individuals and as partners, and our relationship is growing and changing as well. We make changes to what we do and how we do it quite often. Because its in our minds, its a simple agreement (you can't keep a 20 page contract in your head), it covers the very basics of how things are supposed to function, so it still applies. Even as we change things in the execution of that plan, the plan still functions as our guide. We make further supplemental agreements as things come up, but these are all done within the context of that original bare bones outline. ETA: My post made sense at the point i started it, but because a fussed around with the wording so much the thread has gone on long past the point where I made sense. At the point where the thread is now, I don't agree with SailingBum

LadyPact -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 12:02:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SailingBum I breezed thru the post saw haircut, contract, DM. In essence the more I read the lamer it got. So I may have skipped over that part. A contract is between the parties that sign it not a third party. Now perhaps if it was some sort of very risky edge play then the DM might need some sort of release, but a hair cut not so much. ppl do that all the time in public barber shops around the world. Why in the world would you think you'd need a contract. So instead of saying to whomever mr smith is gonna cut my hair. You instead have a contract drawn up"to ease the minds of others"??? Does this CS person not speak or sumptin? re the statement I highlited. It a freaking hair cut how much reassurance could anyone over the age of 5 need? I saw the pict someone siting calm in a chair. I suspect my reading skills are fine it's your writing skills that need work. I get my hair cut all the time what in the world would make you think I need a contract??? What the hell am i missing here? BadOne I think you're wrong on this one. What you are seeing as a haircut, I'm seeing as a form of a resistance play scene that's being held at a public dungeon. Even though the parties agreed beforehand that the scene was consensual, I'm guessing that there was a good probability that there was going to be some struggle involved, some fighting back, and some shouts of protests once the scene started. There's no better time to make the DMs aware in advance of what was going to happen that evening. People may get haircuts all of the time, but when's the last time you saw a grown adult kicking, screaming, and trying to get away in a barber shop?

ranja -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 2:09:21 AM)
FR if you are so inclined a contract can be a great way of fore play i presume. but i think it is rather stupid to make a contract of revoking a safeword and expecting people in a dungeon to be ok with that... i mean what is the whole point of the monitors then if the safewords don't count no more... how are they gonna do their job and make sure people are safe and happy?

DesFIP -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 6:09:24 AM)
In general, I've always thought the most useful part of a contract was that in setting things down in black and white, you have to clarify what you mean. It isn't to hold someone to something, because if it isn't working for them anymore you have to address that, but to make sure there is no miscommunication. And I'm not sure why a DM would have wanted to know that CS had agreed to this, unless she was screaming red and it was being ignored. If that's likely to be the case in future, I'd recommend you explaining to the DM ahead of time that it was consensual nonconsent.

GreedyTop -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 6:12:59 AM)
From the OP: quote: For instance, CreepyStalker and I have been planning a head-shaving scene for some time (by which I mean 'for longer than we've been together'). There were going to be multiple other people involved and it was going to be in a public dungeon. She wanted to do it without a safeword. In that situation a specific, temporary contract seemed like a good idea. Not in any binding sense of the word, but so I could show it to the other people involved (particularly the big guy who was going to be holding her down) and to the DM without putting her under any pressure to explain herself.

MrHCurious -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 6:16:40 AM)
quote: And I'm not sure why a DM would have wanted to know that CS had agreed to this, unless she was screaming red and it was being ignored. If that's likely to be the case in future, I'd recommend you explaining to the DM ahead of time that it was consensual nonconsent. Yes, that was the point. That was pretty much the entire point, so if chaos did ensue nobody (certainly none of the monitors) was going to be wading in and demanding everything stop because it had gotten much too silly and couldn't you hear her screaming red and you're all SO DANGEROUS GET OUT GET OUT AND NEVER COME BACK. VC basically spelled that out.

DesFIP -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 6:18:45 AM)
Were you there? VC didn't state that CS had been screaming red, simply that in case she started objecting to it, they had written out this agreement. Could have happened and did happen are not the same. If it did happen, then I agree that the DM was being remiss in not checking in.

OwnedFemaleFlesh -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 6:33:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious In that situation a specific, temporary contract seemed like a good idea. Not in any binding sense of the word, but so I could show it to the other people involved (particularly the big guy who was going to be holding her down) and to the DM without putting her under any pressure to explain herself. --- I just feel like contracts get a bad rap, when they can actually be quite a handy resource sometimes. It's definitely something I'd do again if I was organising a multiple person consensual non-consent scene. I think it could be useful for clarifying a scene between yourself and other participants, but as someone who has been the DM at events, it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to me. If a person said they wanted to stop a scene or if a person wanted to back out from what had been agreed, I would enforce that person's right to do so. The function staff have not entered into any contract or agreement to practice CNC, but they will still be held responsible if something goes wrong or a scene goes too far. DMs have to err on the side of caution and most will stick by SSC to the letter. From my point of view, if a person at a party states that s/he is being forced to do something that they do not consent to, then it is my duty to prevent non-consensual activity for the sake of the club. It's the same as if a couple agree to play without a safeword, but yet halfway through the scene, the submissive shouts out the dungeon safeword, or asks a DM to intervene, then I have an obligation to do so, whatever may have been agreed between the couple beforehand. If other people choose to engage in CNC then that is up to them but I don't think it's fair to expect DM staff to become embroiled in that. owned xxx

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 6:44:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OwnedFemaleFlesh The function staff have not entered into any contract or agreement to practice CNC, but they will still be held responsible if something goes wrong or a scene goes too far. DMs have to err on the side of caution and most will stick by SSC to the letter. From my point of view, if a person at a party states that s/he is being forced to do something that they do not consent to, then it is my duty to prevent non-consensual activity for the sake of the club. See, I can completely see that, which is why I was prepared to talk it through with the DM at some length (and really quite taken aback that I didn't have to at all.) CS isn't the 'scream a dungeon safeword or actively ask a DM to step in' type, but we were prepared for her to sound pretty distressed, we were prepared for tears and frantic struggling and her asking me (rather than a DM) to stop at full volume. As it happened we got the volume but not much of the struggling, so it would have been fine either way, but we didn't know that beforehand. It's not that I was trying to somehow make the dungeon 'enter into an agreement to practice CNC' by waving a bit of paper at them; it was just a way of letting them know what was going on without putting pressure on (an already nervous) CS to talk to them herself. I've been taught that it's good etiquette to let the DMs know before you do anything big or out of the ordinary, and normally I'd get the person I was playing with to do that with me, but I wanted a way of doing so without directly involving her on the day.

GreedyTop -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 7:00:20 AM)
the contract, if it had been viewed by the DMs previously, would have also pointed out that the OTHER participants in the scene had been previioulsy involved... soemthing I agree should have been indicated,. I agree with VC that it is rather worrisome that the DMs at said location were so dismissive ... gawd, I need to quit typing while sleepy.. please tell me that what I just wrote made sense?

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 7:00:53 AM)
Also, to everyone asking why the DM would want to know: Possibly it's an English/American thing? Because I got asked by multiple people over the course of the day whether I'd checked with one of the DMs - I'd assumed it was the expected course of action anyway, but the number of times I got asked the question really did seem to back up that assumption. So I'm kind of baffled by the people going 'why on earth would the DM want to know about a CNC/potential resistance scene?' and the only thing I can think of is that it might just be a cultural divide.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 7:04:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop the contract, if it had been viewed by the DMs previously, would have also pointed out that the OTHER participants in the scene had been previioulsy involved... soemthing I agree should have been indicated,. I agree with VC that it is rather worrisome that the DMs at said location were so dismissive ... gawd, I need to quit typing while sleepy.. please tell me that what I just wrote made sense? Made sense (even if that's an...interesting spelling of the word 'previously'. [8D]) If there's a next time I'll make sure to be more specific about what could be involved and how many people will be involved. <ed cuz I missed a bracket - maybe the sleepiness is catching, Greeds... :p)

GreedyTop -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 7:09:06 AM)
yer so cute :) ya missed the letter transposition on soemthing.. LOL

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 7:10:17 AM)
Hey, I'm not perfect. I'm also not cute. [8D]

GreedyTop -> RE: Useful Contracts (6/15/2011 7:19:55 AM)
snort ( iam happy that the scene went so well for you.. :) )

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