RE: Forced Bi (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Forced Bi (6/15/2011 8:15:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
I personally, am ONLY talking about men that ask/beg for it, and do NOT want to be in a relationship with me or anyone, unless they endulge/or engage them into forced-bi activities.

Even after I tell them, I have ZERO interest in doing that for/to them.
Many then stomp off, lol.

Now if they want me to force them, into activities I am interested in, so be it!

lol, I will not allow a man to FORCE me into Forcing him into something I have no interest in.
Everyone is different, so this hardly applies to all, it applies to the ones that beg/plead/and whine for it.

This is something that we've been agreeing on for years, Marini.  Doesn't matter if we're talking about forced bi, force fem, or any other thing that folks obviously desire and want to slap the 'forced' title associated with the kink.  As I said earlier, it's easy to spot.  They are usually the ones who approach with the idea and that takes the fun of 'force' out of it.

A high majority of the activities that I conduct are generally for mutual enjoyment.  Still, there's going to be that one activity (depending on whom I'm dealing with) that they don't want to do.  Sorry, OP.  That's not for their growth or any other fluffy sounding thing.  I flat out want to do it every once in a while because I know they hate it.  My primary objective in doing so is because I'm getting My jollies off of it.  Guys who already want to do the activity don't qualify when I want to get that certain buzz from it.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Forced Bi (6/16/2011 3:23:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kickable

Thanks to all for expressing your views.
I'm overwhelmed by the responses.
I am not looking for a bi or gay experience, forced or otherwise.
I do believe an experienced is forced if a sub is coerced, pressuried bullied etc to an experience the sub would not seek on his/her own.
To say it's not forced, or you're not forcing someone, is to not understand the meaning of the word forced, in my opinion.



Well first of all thank you so much for telling me that obviously the past 10 or 12 years I've done it all wrong and I don't understand it...

Now I understand the difference between demanding something from somebody or forcing somebody, but since I believe in consensual relationships, I'm aware that I can't force anybody unless I cross the line to non-consensual.

quote:

I'm apparently in the minority, wanting to see a Dominatrix who proudly says, "Yea, I forced him. He knew what he was getting into and he stayed. He's that devoted to me."


You might not be, only most of us don't bother with the "forced" rubbish guys want to hear, I'd say "He knew what he was getting into and he stayed, being with me was more important than doing something he didn't like, it's devotion and not force!" I'd be proud of somebody being devoted but I couldn't ever be proud of doing something non-consensual.

This whole "forced" issue is something ONLY men come up with, and in my eyes a lot of it comes out of fantasy land, watching BDSM porn, a bit like being abducted by a bunch of hot dommes and kept as their sex toy. I've been thinking about it on occasion (not abducting somebody to use him as a sex toy but the mindset behind it) and it always seems to boil down to "Oh I was forced, I usually wouldn't ever do <insert activity>, she MADE me do it!"
The equivalent of a woman who will say "Oh he forced me to put up with his behaviour..." Unless he used brutal violence or threats and made it impossible for her to leave, he didn't, she could always get a divorce.

The concept you use "forced" in is more than a bit wonky, because then every relationship, even vanilla relationships would be "forced" - you know the woman/man who "forces" her/his partner to be faithful or s/he'd leave him - forced... Doing the work you get paid for or you'd be laid off - forced, paying rent or mortgage or you get evicted - forced, paying for things you buy or they call the police - forced...

quote:

Heck, even in a spanking, a Domme forced the sub to accept pain.


Oh hell yeah, if I'm playing with somebody and I say "I want to spank you now" - I'm really forcing that person to accept pain? Go to a BDSM event and take a woman with you who'll say loudly "And who is next for a spanking/worshiping my feet/whipping/bondage..." And you see a long line of subs cuing up - obviously all "forced"!

quote:

Because someone gives in doesn't mean they're not being forced. I'm frankly surprised more Female Dominants aren't sensitive to this point of view.



We're quite sensitive to the fact that you're getting off on the idea of being "forced" instead of owning up and saying "The right woman could make me do this because being with her would be more important to me than one of my hard limits" - but that would force you to admit that you PREFERRED to be with the woman, and that seems what guys have a hard time to admitting.

quote:

I believe part of the enjoyment for Dommes is to expand the boundaries of a sub, to tease, tempt, coerce, pressure, demand (force) a sub to try new things, especially things the sub resists.


It's always great if a man tells a woman what she wants and how she really feels. As LP has said before, it has nothing to do with expanding your boundaries, it's for *our* kicks and pleasure, we're usually not doing this because we don't enjoy the action and only do it to watch your "growth", we're doing it because it's something we enjoy and you (general you) go along with it or you don't - if you don't you might not be in service anymore, that's the equivalent of not paying the landlord - you might lose the home...

quote:

I think some are afraid of being labeled as participating in non-consenual activities if they own up to "forcing" behavior on a sub. I'd make the point that it can be forced and also be consensual.


Nope, just not interested in giving cheap excuses or pandering to "Oh it wasn't my fault, she made me do it!"
I like interacting with adults, people who don't need excuses for the activities they participate in, I don't want to pander to some porn fantasies of being "forced". Terribly selfish of me, but you know what? So far it helped me to only engage in BDSM with people who are able to be responsible adults and who don't need a scapegoat who "forced them in a consensual non-consensual way".



PeonForHer -> RE: Forced Bi (6/16/2011 5:29:37 AM)

I must admit I thought the OP was havering towards quite a balanced sort of conclusion, Lady C. He was trying to articulate some idea of 'forced' in a BDSM sense, I felt. I really believe we could do with such a sense here at CM.

quote:

Now I understand the difference between demanding something from somebody or forcing somebody, but since I believe in consensual relationships, I'm aware that I can't force anybody unless I cross the line to non-consensual.


Yeah, but . . . dommes usually do want to push at the edges, don't they? To bring the game onto that thin but exciting strip of land between consensual and forced . . . that's what it's all about, isn't it? And why not? Fun!



LadyConstanze -> RE: Forced Bi (6/16/2011 5:48:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I must admit I thought the OP was havering towards quite a balanced sort of conclusion, Lady C. He was trying to articulate some idea of 'forced' in a BDSM sense, I felt. I really believe we could do with such a sense here at CM.




You know the fact that we all obviously don't understand because we don't cater to the same idea he does is "balanced", or that a spanking is "forcing the sub to endure pain"?

Again, I always love if it so much if people tell me how I MUST feel, it's really so balanced. Obviously women (including dominant women) don't know what they really want and need men to explain it to them and how they should be dominant, or else they're just clueless and don't understand the dynamics.

I'm waiting for the day when the subs will let us know that to be twue dommes we have to start with "And how may I dominate you today? Would you like me to pretend to force you, so you can indulge in an action guilt free, since I used the word force..."

One thing I really want to know is why the whole "forced" issue is usually something that is brought up by guys and especially online. IRL the guy will tell you that he enjoys being pushed, that they are willing to show commitment and devotion to you by doing things they won't enjoy, but you hardly ever hear them using "forced".

To me the whole "forced" issue guys tend to bring up in online discussions just seems a thinly veiled porn fantasy. I never ONCE encountered it in real life apart from in commercial dungeons where the guys handed over money to be "forced" - yes and we all know that it is so forced when they are even willing to pay to be forced... I mean you can give consent, but to actually pay for something, how much more consent can you give?



kickable -> RE: Forced Bi (6/17/2011 11:54:08 AM)

Lady Pact,
Thanks for your comments, which I believe coincide with my viewpoint. If it's something you want to do and your sub doesn't want, but the sub submits to your demand (whether verbal or physical or both), then it is forced. I don't think that would be nonconsensual. I can see that a Domme would expect such submission in a good personal relationship.
kick
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
I personally, am ONLY talking about men that ask/beg for it, and do NOT want to be in a relationship with me or anyone, unless they endulge/or engage them into forced-bi activities.

Even after I tell them, I have ZERO interest in doing that for/to them.
Many then stomp off, lol.

Now if they want me to force them, into activities I am interested in, so be it!

lol, I will not allow a man to FORCE me into Forcing him into something I have no interest in.
Everyone is different, so this hardly applies to all, it applies to the ones that beg/plead/and whine for it.

This is something that we've been agreeing on for years, Marini.  Doesn't matter if we're talking about forced bi, force fem, or any other thing that folks obviously desire and want to slap the 'forced' title associated with the kink.  As I said earlier, it's easy to spot.  They are usually the ones who approach with the idea and that takes the fun of 'force' out of it.

A high majority of the activities that I conduct are generally for mutual enjoyment.  Still, there's going to be that one activity (depending on whom I'm dealing with) that they don't want to do.  Sorry, OP.  That's not for their growth or any other fluffy sounding thing.  I flat out want to do it every once in a while because I know they hate it.  My primary objective in doing so is because I'm getting My jollies off of it.  Guys who already want to do the activity don't qualify when I want to get that certain buzz from it.





kickable -> RE: Forced Bi (6/17/2011 12:07:03 PM)

I raised the forced issue because so many of the Dommes I have known ask me about bi or gay experieces. I never have asked and have always said no.
One Domme said in her experience it doesn't take much to force a guy and the guys are not really forced. I'm sure some guys want the bi-gay experience for whatever reason. Some truly don't.
I will say all the Dommes I've known respected my limit, but never let a relationship develop. I'm not saying my reluctance for a bi scene was the reason, but I think it at least contributed. In a relationship,
I think limits are extended and perhaps this bi thing could happen.
Perhaps it's a crutch for me, but if it happened I'd say it was forced on me and I accepted it because of the relationship I had with my Domme.
Perhaps part of the humiliation thrill for a Domme is to not only pressure, cajole, demand, punish, force a guy to do something he doesn't want, but then to tell people he wanted to do it.
So, if I did ever submit to this, that's the other shoe I'd have to be prepared to fall.



undergroundsea -> RE: Forced Bi (6/19/2011 2:43:40 PM)

I think the interest in BDSM occurs because of some experience, usually in childhood, which creates an erotic association with what was experienced. Many submissive men have developed an erotic response to being under female authority.

Once this general response takes birth, it can take specific forms when such a sub is exposed to situations that show female authority. For example, such a sub might be watching a mainstream film or reading BDSM erotica and may come across a particular expression or form of female authority. He may then want to experience the female authority in the same way.

If that expression of female authority is to force someone to do something, whether that is to be forced to engage in bisexual activity or to lick the floor or to be forced to do unpleasant things in general, so it is. Because they want to be forced does not change that they are forced the same way as consensual submission is not nullified by the desire to submit.

There have been multiple arguments presented about why the concept of forced can be forced, each based on logic and personal testimony. How about those who are adamant that "forced" is flawed concept address those arguments?

quote:

Again, I always love if it so much if people tell me how I MUST feel, it's really so balanced. Obviously women (including dominant women) don't know what they really want and need men to explain it to them and how they should be dominant, or else they're just clueless and don't understand the dynamics.


This argument cancels out because of the equivalent argument that applies in the opposite direction, for then why not let the submissive men who feel this play is forced feel that way rather than explain to them what they should be feeling.

Cheers,

Sea



LadyConstanze -> RE: Forced Bi (6/19/2011 3:10:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea


This argument cancels out because of the equivalent argument that applies in the opposite direction, for then why not let the submissive men who feel this play is forced feel that way rather than explain to them what they should be feeling.

Cheers,

Sea



Well, I am not telling anybody they can't suck cock and feel "forced", you can do it as much as you like and I don't couldn't give a toss, but if somebody tells me that I have to play this way, they can go and find somebody else, I don't like being emotionally blackmailed into "forcing" somebody because they refuse to admit that they aren't forced but want to do it for whatever reasons, be it pleasing the dominant or some desire to engage in those actions.

Thanks again so much for telling me how I have to think, do you tell your dominant how she has to serve you today? Because you seem quite eager to tell us how we have to dominate, feel and express ourselves. If for me it is a hard limit, then I really don't need your validation, because frankly my dynamic would cancel you out anyway. You can want whatever you want, it's up to you to find a dominant who gives it to you, and if you can't find it, why complain to us? None of us is obliged to "serve" submissives - which seems the general tenor here. If somebody wants to be "forced" - again I have to yet experience it in RL interactions, for some reason much more common in professional BDSM (now if that isn't telling) - find a dominant who feels forced, but please do not tell me how I have to feel about it. Of course you are free to dominate yourself and demand how you feel, it's just that you are not part of my dynamic and your opinion doesn't count a lot because my feelings are mine, and I am entitled to them.

Cheers or Hasta La Vista, let me know when I made you the ruler of my thoughts and BDSM interactions, I shall make sure I'll do that in writing but don't hold your breath.



PeonForHer -> RE: Forced Bi (6/21/2011 2:50:43 PM)

You shouldn't go around feeling that men are telling you what to feel, IMO, Lady C.



MsKittyValentine -> RE: Forced Bi (6/26/2011 9:57:38 AM)

Someone I know called it Boy on Boy facilitated play as she didn't really feel comfortable with the concept of forced BI. She felt that made it seem as if sucking cock was inherently a bad thing and shameful in and of itself.

I liked this idea.

I don't do forced bi or BOB facilitated play as I discovered recently I don't give a shit about men sticking there cocks into each other. For whatever reason. I am happy for them if they are inclined or want to do it but I am not the person to make this happen. It just doesn't turn me on at all, not even slightly. I am probably unusual as so many Dommes say they love it.



kickable -> RE: Forced Bi (7/2/2011 10:46:25 PM)

These discussions have opened my eyes further. Many activities that I dream about and might ask for are forced. Once a ball-kicking starts, a big part of me doesn't want it to continue. The pain has provoked a fear-flight syndrome, though part of me wants to stay. I keep thinking, "Please make me stay." "Please stop." I think there's some force even at this play I desire, when the mistress pushes me beyond what I want or can take.



LPslittleclip -> RE: Forced Bi (7/4/2011 9:07:52 PM)

as my Mistress said previosly She enjoys seeing mom action as i am Her slave what She says goes. i am hetro my self but i will do what She commands as it pleases Her and that is my position in the dynamic. i would not seek out male play for my pleasure as i am not aroused by it. for those that are more for you guys. as for me i will do what pleases my Mistress.



MistrixMsE -> RE: Forced Bi (7/5/2011 7:01:59 PM)

IMO..

Forced bi is a coping construct that guys who are not comfortable with their bi/gay tendencies use as an escape mechanism... its their out from having to accept/come to terms with their extracurricular interests.
"I'm not gay even tho I sucked that guys cock, because my mistress made me do it & I didn't have a choice. I had to do it!" In almost all cases, I doubt there is much forcing necessary...I'll admit though, it may happen in some D/S relationships.

Its funnier in context...when guys call to schedule pro-sessions and ask for forced bi though. I want to pay you EXTRA to 'make me' do forced bi. How is it forced if you called me to ask for it and paid extra? LOL

Guys, accept who you are... if it floats your boat & doesn't hurt anyone non-consensually, embrace it.





hangemhigh1953 -> RE: Forced Bi (7/9/2011 12:41:24 AM)

Bisexuality refers to the attraction to both genders, not the actual sexual activity. So if you're a straight guy and forced to suck cock, it doesn't mean you're forced into bisexuality because you're not attracted to the guy, it's just forced cocksucking. You simply can't force an attraction.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Forced Bi (7/9/2011 1:02:59 AM)

quote:

She enjoys seeing mom action
That threw me for a loop. Maybe you should write that "m-o-m" in the future. [:)]



Tantriqu -> RE: Forced Bi (7/9/2011 8:18:10 AM)

It's simple to me: forced bi- is rape. 'Forced' bi- is gay or bi-



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