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Some say there is no possibility of a personal relationship unless I become bi.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
This does happen to be one of My kinks, but even I would think it would be rather crude to ask *every* submissive male that I ever happened to meet if they were bisexual or open to hetero-flexible situations.

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ORIGINAL: Back2theFuture
So as we can really see the concept of "Forced" Bi is misnomer if not oxymoronic.

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

Let's imagine a guy who finds it a turn-on to be ordered to lick a toilet. I doubt that he finds joy in what he feels when he licks the toilet itself on his own--that is, he would unlikely lick the toilet on his own at home. What makes this activity attractive to him is that it represents submission and humiliation for being ordered to do something he would consider unpleasant. The same could apply to forced bi.

That he enjoys being ordered or forced to do something he otherwise would not want to do does not mean that the activity is not forced. Otherwise, one would not be able to describe consensual submission as submission.

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ORIGINAL: Back2theFuture
I completely understand, but calling it "Forced" is while the most simplistic thing to do it is inaccurate, as there is some form of consent to it as with all submission.

A more accurate terminology would be "Pseudo-forced Bi".

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Well, you know unless you really do have no choice because you are tied up and unable to leave and then you get raped, it's not forced

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
I think most dommes would hold a similar perspective. Some, however, think differently.

I recall a recent discussion where a domme tried to pressure a sub into engaging in bisexual activity. She used emotional blackmail to convince him to try it. When he said he could not do it at time of the arranged scene, she turned cold on him. He came to forums for advice and people told him to move on.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Correct.  Unless I'm mistaken, this is the same OP.

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

I think the point about whether consent negates the concept of force is fuzzy.

First, I don't think forcing someone requires physical power--the threat of unpleasant consequences, whether physical or not, which compel action also constitute forced behavior.

A secondary may force out of bounds a running back of a football team trying to come from behind in the closing minutes of a game not for physical fear of being tackled but for fear of clock continuing to run. A judge may force a party to comply not for fear of physical harm but for fear of some other unwanted consequence such as disallowing a given type of evidence.

Therefore, a sub complying with an order given by a domme to do activity x may still be forced even if physical force is not immediately used. This compliance could be driven by fear of unwanted consequence.

Thus, simply because a sub complies without use of physical force does not mean he is not being forced.

Next, let us consider a scenario where the compliance or submission (compliance is one form of submission) is enthusiastic. If the enthusiasm to comply is for sake of symbolizing submission, versus for sake of enjoying the activity for sake of that specific activity, then I think it is still compliance and submission. Enthusiasm to be submissive does not negate submission. I define submission to be behavior that is characterized by acts that are one or more of the following: obedient, deferential, appeasing, or capitulating. The disciple of a Buddhist Guru is still submissive to the guru even if this submission is given enthusiastically. A submissive who is obedient, deferential, appeasing, or capitulating is still submissive even if submission brings him arousal.

If doing something one is told to do and liking it means we must put a word pseudo before it, then consensual submission is pseudo submission--even if it consists of acts that are obedient, deferential, appeasing and capitulating--and you and I are pseudo submissives.

I see your point that there is some difference between enthusiasm for a particular form of submission, and submission without the enthusiasm. At a broad level this distinction is made by consent. Thus we have consensual submission and non-consensual submission, and consensual forced Bi versus non-consensual forced Bi. If the non-consensual forced bi is part of a consensual non-consent dynamic (versus, say, prison ;-) ), then it becomes a mouthful: consensual non-consensual forced Bi ;-)

Within consent, one can make further distinctions with respect to enthusiasm, neutral feeling, or distaste for an activity done under compliance by a submissive. This distinction is seeking to discern not between submission or lack of submission, but between points on a continuum that spans D/s with and D/s without emotional SM. By emotional SM I mean the desire for a struggle or emotional discomfort, just like physical SM seeks to create physical discomfort. So I agree that there is something that distinguishes the two scenarios but I don't think that entity is whether it is forced.

Cheers,

Sea

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ORIGINAL: Back2theFuture
I guess the part of forced Bi I really have a problem with is understanding the psychology.

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As if they are having problems coming to terms with some slight Homophobia.

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And I can understand the motives behind it but you can't really say with a straight face that you were forced to jump off a cliff when you asked someone to push you.

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Basically its not rape if you enjoy it and its not force if you ask someone to make you do it.

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

I do not directly understand the psychology of it but have the benefit of reading a post by an articulate sub years ago. He clarified that he had no sexual interest in men whatsoever and never thought or wished for any such activity on his own time. However, he enjoyed the idea of his domme forcing it for the submission it represented. And I can understand the psychology of it by reflecting on other situations of being forced to do something unpleasant.

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I don't think there is one answer or explanation behind this interest. There are other subs who do identify with this explanation to shift responsibility. The point I wish to convey is that not all subs fall under the hidden desire explanation.

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I do not know enough about the situation with your girlfriend but it is possible she may have gone too far and did what most in BDSM would consider objectionable. If so, using that example as the anchor to measure other situations might not be suitable.

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Ah. You have helped me think of another example. Let's say it's winter time and a domme and sub are outside by a pool with very cold water. Let's say the sub has no interest in jumping in the pool because he does not like to be in cold water. But he observes another domme taking a cattle prod and forcing her sub to jump in the pool. He responds erotically to this act of dominance and SM. He begins to wish his domme would do the same. His domme sees how intently he has been watching the other domme and sub. The erection is also a pretty obvious give away ;-) She borrows the cattle prod and forces him into the pool.

The attachment is not to the idea to experience cold water by going into the pool; the attachment is to the idea of being forced itself. The pool of cold water simply serves as one way to experience the dominance and sadism of being forced to do an activity. Thus, it appears one wishes to go into the pool but what one really wishes for is to be dominated and, in this case, this dominance is being done through the act of forcing into an unpleasant activity.

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My metric for whether it is rape or not is not whether it is enjoyed, but whether it was done with or without consent.

Cheers,
Sea

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ORIGINAL: Back2theFuture

From what I can discern from many of these type of Profiles is that they want to preform a homosexual(or bisexual) act while being able to rationalize it to themselves if not others as "I was forced to do it". As if they are having problems coming to terms with some slight Homophobia.

I find it hard to consider it "forced" if it is what they want to do. Forced would be doing something you don't want to do.

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ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

While I've never performed a homosexual act,