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RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 2:49:57 PM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: texastgirl

i mean used to when a man would open a door or pull out a chair for a woman it was called being a gentleman. now if he does it, hes called a pig or chauvinist.  when a woman wants to be obedient to a man, society looks at her like shes not a real woman or something.  a man takes control over his woman, and society looks at him like he must be forcing her or she must be a victim.   so do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men and take control?


To the OP...

To be honest, I share the struggle some of the other posters are having with the "real man" thing.

I open doors primarily because from a very early age I was taught (by pavlovian response) to expect my Mum's hand to appear from nowhere and clip me round the ear if I failed to hold a door open for someone else.

It's simply polite to open the door for people.

I've only ever once been called a chauvinist by a woman for holding the door open, and my response was "Listen poppet, when we gave your lot the vote we didn't expect you to give up good manners". And - Totally-true-I-swear-to-god- within 36 hours I was banging my little feminist firebrand like hammer and tongs.

I do think you have a point about submissive women - there's still a lot of controversy within the women's movement about D/s... but the true feminists out there are sex positive.

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Profile   Post #: 121
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 2:58:48 PM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

Prozac and other drugs do a great job at making people numb to emotions and disturbing thoughts. Pretty sad, that if they actually got some physical activitiy and a better diet their moods and sense of self value..might just be a little more healthier.



This is such garbage, I don't even know where to start.
  Unfortunately, it's not.


I agree, it's not garbage. It is absolutely true that good exercise and diet is highly beneficial. But it would be total garbage to say "Prozac etc are useless, people should just change their exercise and dieting behaviours"


quote:


quote:

People take SSRIs when the only emotions they have are the dark, self defeating, self hating and suicidal ones. Changing diet and exercise won't affect suicidal ideation at all.
  People take SSRIs for a variety of reasons.  However the difference in effect between an SSRI and a placebo is so small that under current regulations, no SSRI would meet the burden of proof required to justify its existence as a palliative.



Meh, this is simply not the case. If it were, the drugs would be withdrawn. Drug regulations are retroactive.

The vast bulk of the evidence (and a number of meta studies have shown this) is that SSRI's have a significant effect over placebo. It is not massive - 15-20% - but it is significant.

Sure.. there is a lot of lazy prescription of SSRI's, but for some people they're an enormously useful tool in helping them manage their mental health.

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Profile   Post #: 122
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 3:44:30 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

this post further begs the question, then -- "in your opinion, what is a 'real man'?"
One with a penis. That makes them a man. Beyond that they're just people like everybody else.
I got banned from that fet  forum because they assumed I said that - which I didn't - although biologically, that is pretty much the case, as an abstraction, "real men" is whole 'nother can of worms.



Quite an astute comment from you both, as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, I do think some women should stop fiddling themselves themselves off to videos of Colin Firth playing Mr D'Arcy and get out of the house a bit more.

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 4:46:35 PM   
MaxsBoy


Posts: 766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

this post further begs the question, then -- "in your opinion, what is a 'real man'?"
One with a penis. That makes them a man. Beyond that they're just people like everybody else.
I got banned from that fet  forum because they assumed I said that - which I didn't - although biologically, that is pretty much the case, as an abstraction, "real men" is whole 'nother can of worms.



Quite an astute comment from you both, as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, I do think some women should stop fiddling themselves themselves off to videos of Colin Firth playing Mr D'Arcy and get out of the house a bit more.


Not really.  What about me, am I a fake man because I don't have a dick?  Gender is pretty much a social construct, but guess what - so is sex.  It's not black and white nearly as often as people think it is.

I might keep my penis in my sock drawer, but I'm as male as any of the flesh-penis-carrying type.

/ hijack

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 5:52:41 PM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

...and my response was "Listen poppet, when we gave your lot the vote we didn't expect you to give up good manners". And - Totally-true-I-swear-to-god- within 36 hours I was banging my little feminist firebrand like hammer and tongs.




It was the "poppet" thing that worked. "Poppet" is like "slut" in Britishese...

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:15:02 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Too many people who think it's their job to mind other peoples business in this country, that's fer sure.

But speaking of real men...

I was expecting a pic of Sam Elliot...

To the OP...I think that anyone who would take offense towards common courtesy is not a real woman.

As for the man leading the relationship, some dig it, some don't.  Why worry about what others do?

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:19:55 PM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Too many people who think it's their job to mind other peoples business in this country, that's fer sure.

But speaking of real men...

I was expecting a pic of Sam Elliot...




Jas, we already handled this your greedy lil girl.... http://www.collarchat.com/m_3678131/mpage_10/tm.htm

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:24:31 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
Men hold the door open so they can watch the woman's ass. Let's be real. I don't mind. I'll swish a little for you, baby.


I hate to say this hun, but most women ain't worth the look at. There's plenty of female flesh on outta shape bodies stuffed inside of rags walking around with an bad attitude. Seriously, what ever happen to somebody having a little self respect for themselves? People seem to be confused. Things such as dressing sexy is showing a lack of self respect for oneself and etc. I almost hate to say it, but it's rather bit of an American Mindset. Also one can dress sexy and not look like trailor park trash as well. There's plenty of women that need to take makeup lessons at Merle Norman or elseware.

More times than not, I'm holding the door open outta basic human respect...not for a look at the ass. The diets and crap loads of garbage people over eat or over indulge in...is mind blowing. There's too many people that don't take even a basic simple walk. You don't have to be hitting the Gym heavy every day to keep in decent shape. It's just the fact, that there's too many what I'm going to call American Fat Asses with very little sense of self respect...they simply don't care about themselves, their health, let alone appearence.

Vanity itself does not equate to narcissism. Yet, this is what many people are taught to believe. In fact, women will give other women who take care of themselves a fucking hard time. Seriously, women can be the biggest bitches to one another compared to how any man would treat a women. At the same time, if a man say shit about stuff he risks being labeled a Misogynist. nah nah.. the world is in perfect order for many people, no matter how backwards it might appear.

What I got to say anyways, doesn't matter, it's not some magic pill one can swallow as a cure to their own fucked up bullshit... Prozac and other drugs do a great job at making people numb to emotions and disturbing thoughts. Pretty sad, that if they actually got some physical activitiy and a better diet their moods and sense of self value..might just be a little more healthier.

Sorry hun, if what I'm saying here is too raw or out there. I'm just expressing my thoughts and opinion on it. There's not enough Ass ends worth the look at. LOL


Wow.  The judgements made in that one post made me throw up a little bit in my mouth.

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:30:26 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

~fast reply~

OK, we're 6 pages in. Have we figured out what a "real man" is yet? I'd like a summary if there is one please. I've had great fun in all the ways I'm a fake dom. This seems like a whole new way to be fake.


real_man

eta that is now officially meant for Sunny

< Message edited by JstAnotherSub -- 6/18/2011 6:33:01 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:33:38 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Jas - what is it? I get bing in Korean....

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:38:36 PM   
tiggerspoohbear


Posts: 19141
Joined: 6/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
I was expecting a pic of Sam Elliot...
<snip>

Here's you pic of the real man you asked for:







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by tiggerspoohbear -- 6/18/2011 6:41:06 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:38:54 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		real man




Attachment (1)

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:42:22 PM   
tiggerspoohbear


Posts: 19141
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		Your pic of Sam looks a lot better than mine.   And sorry folks, I missed JAS's pic, didn't read to the end of the thread so far.


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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:43:53 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		That's ok. Two pix of Sam Elliot is double the fun!

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:47:56 PM   
tiggerspoohbear


Posts: 19141
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline 		Two pics of Sam Elliott is twice the fun in bed I'd hope. 

_____________________________

"RABBIT IS GOOD, RABBIT IS WISE".

"I'm a baaa-aaad pussycat".


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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 6:53:23 PM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiggerspoohbear

Two pics of Sam Elliott is twice the fun in bed I'd hope. 


Minor hijack - Did anyone see the sex scene between Sam and Kirstie Allie in the movie Sibling Rivalry?? Hijack over.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 7:28:28 PM   
areallivehuman


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: texastgirl

i mean used to when a man would open a door or pull out a chair for a woman it was called being a gentleman. now if he does it, hes called a pig or chauvinist.  when a woman wants to be obedient to a man, society looks at her like shes not a real woman or something.  a man takes control over his woman, and society looks at him like he must be forcing her or she must be a victim.   so do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men and take control?



Real men don't care about society.

(in reply to texastgirl)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/18/2011 10:41:00 PM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
However the difference in effect between an SSRI and a placebo is so small that under current regulations, no SSRI would meet the burden of proof required to justify its existence as a palliative.


I've seen that study and it has holes all through it.
  Oh really.  Pray tell, exactly how is it full of holes.  It cites the full clinical trials for all the drugs, including those unpublished trials which would have very likely had a significant influence upon the outcome of their approval.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
And allow me to assure you that a placebo will not lift suicidal ideation. I'm fourth generation mood disorder, until the development of SSRIs we've had at least one suicide per generation. Since then, we've had zero.
  I'm afraid that doesn't mean a damn thing.  All it means is that this specific generation you're referring to has been told there's a magic pill which will fix their ills.  This doesn't invalidate the idea that the effect is purely placebo.

quote:

You can take a sugar pill next time you have an overwhelming urge to suck the exhaust pipe of your car. See how well it helps you. Me? I'll go right back to the psychiatrist and ask for another round of Zoloft.
  You have no idea if it makes a difference or not.  Then again, it depends how depressed you are.  Severely depressed people respond more poorly to placebos, they don't gain an enhanced benefit from the SSRI.  For most people who aren't severely depressed, SSRI's are a complete waste of time.



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RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/19/2011 2:00:58 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: areallivehuman

quote:

ORIGINAL: texastgirl

i mean used to when a man would open a door or pull out a chair for a woman it was called being a gentleman. now if he does it, hes called a pig or chauvinist.  when a woman wants to be obedient to a man, society looks at her like shes not a real woman or something.  a man takes control over his woman, and society looks at him like he must be forcing her or she must be a victim.   so do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men and take control?



Real men don't care about society.


Hello,
I actually don't agree with this but find it an interesting point. There is a certain balance, perhaps? Part of becoming an adult, part of differentiation, is to actually decide that one's own authority is what matters. However, there are certain parts of society that it makes sense to care about and rules to abide by (laws for example). Also, I expect there are certain things one does just to make someone else happy. Do you really WANT to go to the local high school football game or do you go because it will make your niece happy? You go to church to appease momma. That kind of thing is part and parcel of being a member of society.

Also, no one person is an island. You care about things like electricity, so you pay your bill. You care about the part of society that brings you your water and takes your sewage away. You care about the society that educates your children and keeps the roads working and the fire hydrants connected to water and the ambulances filled with gasoline to take you to the hospital if need be.

I think real men - and yes, I am using the word REAL in the oft-maligned sense - do in fact care about society. They are aware of their interdependence upon the community in which they live. REAL men are aware of their impact upon those around them and respect that impact. They also are aware of the impact of society, its norms and rules, and the impact those things have upon him.

I could be wrong, but this is certainly my point of view.

best,
sunshine

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be... - 6/19/2011 4:06:20 AM   
areallivehuman


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline 		Hi sunshine,
  That was written a bit tongue in cheek, perhaps a better way to put it is;

"Real" men don't care what society THINKS of them  . 


If I believe opening doors for women is the right thing to do, I will do it.  If someone criticizes my actions, I might rethink them, if I am still convinced I'm right, I will continue to do what I think is right.

    "Think about what's right, then go ahead."    Daniel Boone
     "If somethings not right, it's wrong."        Bob Dylan
    "What is right, and what is not right, and do we need someone to tell us these things?        Robert Pirsig

  

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Profile   Post #: 140
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