do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (Full Version)

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texastgirl -> do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:22:45 PM)

i mean used to when a man would open a door or pull out a chair for a woman it was called being a gentleman. now if he does it, hes called a pig or chauvinist.  when a woman wants to be obedient to a man, society looks at her like shes not a real woman or something.  a man takes control over his woman, and society looks at him like he must be forcing her or she must be a victim.   so do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men and take control?



littlewonder -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:23:57 PM)

I don't think I've ever had those problems that you describe. Do I find it difficult? Not really.



kalikshama -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:27:46 PM)

quote:

i mean used to when a man would open a door or pull out a chair for a woman it was called being a gentleman. now if he does it, hes called a pig or chauvinist. 

Not by people in my circle.

quote:

when a woman wants to be obedient to a man, society looks at her like shes not a real woman or something.  a man takes control over his woman, and society looks at him like he must be forcing her or she must be a victim.  

Society does not need to know what goes on behind closed doors.

quote:

so do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men and take control?

No



juliaoceania -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:28:38 PM)

quote:

i mean used to when a man would open a door or pull out a chair for a woman it was called being a gentleman. now if he does it, hes called a pig or chauvinist. 


Not in my social circles. I have never seen a man attacked for holding the door open for a lady.



IrishMist -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:29:08 PM)

Same here, I have never had the problems that you list here. I will, however, answer the question that you posted.

quote:

so do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men and take control?

No, I do not think that society has made it hard. I think that WOMEN have made it hard for men to be men.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:32:23 PM)

it depends on what your definition of "real man" is; if it's based in old-fashioned assumptions about what men "should do/be/think/whatever," then it's possible that you feel the modern world has no place for you.
the type of men that i like are generally more self-confident than that, however.

i have actually seen women bristle up when a man offers to hold a door -- OR when he DOESN'T automatically hold open a door. =p  i think our gender relation issues are still in flux, and probably will be into perpetuity. but if you are a self-confident man or woman, and you have your beliefs, find people who agree with you, and you'll be happy.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:35:18 PM)

this post further begs the question, then -- "in your opinion, what is a 'real man'?"



juliaoceania -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:43:09 PM)

My opinion of a real man is one that takes care of himself and wants to care for those he loves.

A real man is not judged by his orientation, rather gay, straight, by, top, bottom, sub, slave, dominant, or master

I think the OP has control and power exchange mixed up with gender roles.



LaTigresse -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:48:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

this post further begs the question, then -- "in your opinion, what is a 'real man'?"


This.

I know many men. Most would hold a door for ANYone, not just for a woman. I don't see a man taking control of a woman as a 'real man'. In fact, he could be, just a controlling, insecure, putz.

I do not look at the men in my life as either 'real men' or not. They are human beings first and foremost. Some are more admirable human beings than others. All, every single human being I have ever known, including the men, have faults and weaknesses.

I also will never accept the concept that ANYONE or ANYTHING is ultimately responsible for a grown, adult, mentally sound, human being somehow less other than the person themself.

Any man that blames society or women for their own weaknesses I would immediately have no respect for. LIkewise with women.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:51:09 PM)

i agree with you julia; i mean i understand that, for many, there's a very deep part of power exchange that's about gender -- for them, that's their truth and that's how they relate to the world.
for me, though, i don't buy into gender-based anything when it comes to power exchange.

i think any "real" person, man or woman, knows what he/she wants, and has at least some vague idea of how to get there. they know what's important to them, have an idea of what they believe -- a "real" person is someone working to some understanding of him/herself and his/her place in life.

while i tend to be partial to guys with facial hair who wear toolbelts and use powertools, to me that's one expression of masculine energy, not THE expression of it.
there are some things, when you start talking about gender differences as far as physiology, psychology, and other things, where there are aspects of male behavior that have been curtailed, and i think sometimes women do expect men to be more like women in order to be "civilized," but overall, i don't think society is terribly hard on them.

ETA:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I also will never accept the concept that ANYONE or ANYTHING is ultimately responsible for a grown, adult, mentally sound, human being somehow less other than the person themself.

Any man that blames society or women for their own weaknesses I would immediately have no respect for. LIkewise with women.


agreed.



juliaoceania -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:54:55 PM)

I will admit to some prejudice towards the OP because her screen name is "Texan" and that just brings to mind John Wayne and when men were men, and the macho Texan archetype... which I do not like. It repels me, and I prefer my men to be active both physically and mentally in ways that I am... not in "manly" cowboy ways.

Just my personal taste of what clicks that het arousal button of real man to me.



ParappaTheDapper -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 6:57:58 PM)

quote:

i mean used to when a man would open a door or pull out a chair for a woman it was called being a gentleman. now if he does it, hes called a pig or chauvinist.


I do those things all the time, and I've literally never been called a pig or a chauvinist! I'm friends with some pretty over the top, assertive women and none of them have ever called a man a chauvinist for doing those things either! Having good manners and being gallant is generally smiled upon in fact!

Moreover, assertiveness, self-confidence, poise, and self-possession are all traits that are widely valued in men. Being pompous, overbearing, pushy, and belligerent are traits that healthy people never really valued in men, even in the "good old days" (whatever that even means!).

I mean I understand the notion of what is "manly" behavior and what is not manly behavior seems to have become increasingly fluid. But at least during my lifetime the only place where a woman bites a man's head off for pulling a chair out for her is in the cartoonish rantings of misogynists. In my experience, the one commandment is "Thou shalt not be too much of a dickhead and thou shalt do just fine."

Hope this helps!



LaTigresse -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 7:01:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I will admit to some prejudice towards the OP because her screen name is "Texan" and that just brings to mind John Wayne and when men were men, and the macho Texan archetype... which I do not like. It repels me, and I prefer my men to be active both physically and mentally in ways that I am... not in "manly" cowboy ways.

Just my personal taste of what clicks that het arousal button of real man to me.


It's funny that you write this Julia. When I was a little girl I adored John Wayne and thought that was the kinda guy I wanted to grow up and marry. I didn't and as a grown woman I quickly realized that a man like that is the last kind of human being I could be in a relationship with. I admired the personal honour that was often conveyed but the way women were treated was just not something I could be around.



juliaoceania -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 7:03:30 PM)

My first crush was on John Wayne... I was 4 years old....



LaTigresse -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 7:05:42 PM)

[;)]



LillyBoPeep -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 7:07:14 PM)

my first crush ever was Clint Eastwood =p *swoony swoon swoon*
those Westerns...



IrishMist -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 7:13:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My first crush was on John Wayne... I was 4 years old....

*snicker*
James Arness



HisPet21 -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 7:27:11 PM)

quote:

My opinion of a real man is one that takes care of himself and wants to care for those he loves.

A real man is not judged by his orientation, rather gay, straight, by, top, bottom, sub, slave, dominant, or master


Hit the nail on the head, Julia.




juliaoceania -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 7:32:36 PM)

My son had his first crush on Trisha Yearwood[:D] a cowgirl singer



lizi -> RE: do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men? (6/15/2011 7:39:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: texastgirl

i mean used to when a man would open a door or pull out a chair for a woman it was called being a gentleman. now if he does it, hes called a pig or chauvinist. 


I have never in my life seen this happen. Are you sure you're not talking about some 60's women's lib demonstrators or something? This type of mannerliness is still called being a gentlemen and it's what I taught my sons. Manners never go out of style.

quote:

when a woman wants to be obedient to a man, society looks at her like shes not a real woman or something.  a man takes control over his woman, and society looks at him like he must be forcing her or she must be a victim.  

This I have seen happen. It's a product of modern society which tries to protect everyone's voice and make sure that everyone is safe. In my opinion it's much better to lean towards protecting the weak, real men would know this is necessary since there are predators out there,

quote:

 so do you think society has made it hard for men to be real men and take control?


Not really. Things in modern society have developed to be as they are for certain reasons. A man who wants something a certain way will set about trying to obtain that in a socially accepted manner in public, and doing what he wants with his like-minded partner in private.



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