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RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 11:14:06 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I note you left out union rights is that because the study treats union rights as something that reduces freedom?

Well of course it's why. That would seem the reasonable thing to do, don't you think?

From the libertarian point of view, the Wagner Act fundamentally violates freedom of association and basic property rights, and right to work laws somewhat restore that freedom.

The index has its pluses and minuses, which is which being a matter of one's views.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 11:17:13 AM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am think that those who feel restricted by our laws should just get the fuck out. We have too many people here as it is, the whiners won't be missed



Yeah, fuck those gays who want to get married. Whiny bastards...gtfo if you feel so restricted.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 11:36:28 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yup,the states with the least taxes,services and bureaucracy tend to be "free-er". But also some of the poorest,least educated and take in more federal dollars than they pay in,ie federal-welfare-to-states.

Could you at least experiment with the concept of backing up the things you say?

Just for fun?



Don't hold your breath waiting for that to ever happen.



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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 11:40:31 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Or sexual freedom, the freedom to have sexual relationships with people of the same gender and not be prosecuted for a crime... Or freedom to smoke a joint if your sick and it makes you feel better... Or freedom to join a union

No argument. And if you look at the factors they considered (graphic here) you'll find that restrictions on marriage, marijuana use, and civil liberties in general, are among those that weigh against the degree of freedom in a state.

K.



I note you left out union rights is that because the study treats union rights as something that reduces freedom?


Well, we are talking the Koch brothers here.... and they are despicable when looking at workers as human beings

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 11:44:10 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am think that those who feel restricted by our laws should just get the fuck out. We have too many people here as it is, the whiners won't be missed





Yeah, fuck those gays who want to get married. Whiny bastards...gtfo if you feel so restricted.




That is still being fought over here, and in fact our federal and state courts have ruled the ban unconstitutional.

Gay marriage has many proponents here in California... and there are not many places where there is as much approval for it as you will find here

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 11:45:22 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I note you left out union rights is that because the study treats union rights as something that reduces freedom?

Well of course it's why. That would seem the reasonable thing to do, don't you think?

From the libertarian point of view, the Wagner Act fundamentally violates freedom of association and basic property rights, and right to work laws somewhat restore that freedom.

The index has its pluses and minuses, which is which being a matter of one's views.

K.



So, people have no right to freely associate with each other and form unions, gotcha!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 11:47:41 AM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am think that those who feel restricted by our laws should just get the fuck out. We have too many people here as it is, the whiners won't be missed





Yeah, fuck those gays who want to get married. Whiny bastards...gtfo if you feel so restricted.




That is still being fought over here, and in fact our federal and state courts have ruled the ban unconstitutional.

Gay marriage has many proponents here in California... and there are not many places where there is as much approval for it as you will find here


Well then it would seem to me that you're not in favor of people who feel restricted by current laws to get the fuck out...it seems you're more in favor of people who feel restricted by current laws to work to enact social change to be actively involved citizens who shape the nation they are a part of.

At least if they agree with you?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 11:55:05 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

I don't carry a gun...but hey, if I can smoke, sip a cold one, gamble and pay less taxes, I think life is pretty good!


I carry a gun and smoke but I don't go to bars or casinos so it works for me too.
Gun and Drinking mix like drinking and driving.

(in reply to SilverMark)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 11:58:02 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline 		For grins and giggles, I charted the results including data of how the states voted in the last two elections.  Interesting...





Attachment (1)

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 12:09:07 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I like your chart better than the map...good work. It does seem to show a definite link between political parties and the criteria used…At least as an average.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 12:29:45 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Well then it would seem to me that you're not in favor of people who feel restricted by current laws to get the fuck out...it seems you're more in favor of people who feel restricted by current laws to work to enact social change to be actively involved citizens who shape the nation they are a part of.

At least if they agree with you?


Already clarified what I meant when I responded to Kirata

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 12:42:27 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Problem with that chart is it has nothing to do with nothing. 

See, right off the bat I believe that Wisconsin has a republican house.  I believe it made the news in some small way in the last month or two.  And they ain't looking like free willy over there.

And it would seem that some of the laws that are on the books that are so blue would seem to have been around alot longer than the two election cycles before this one.

Minnesota's Blue Law for instance.

So it is as Spock would say, 'Fascinating', but in a way that juxtapositioning the mandarin symbols for the various sea creatures over the first 10,000 decimal positions of Pi might be fascinating, hardly instructive, or germain.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 12:47:29 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I note you left out union rights is that because the study treats union rights as something that reduces freedom?

Well of course it's why. That would seem the reasonable thing to do, don't you think?

From the libertarian point of view, the Wagner Act fundamentally violates freedom of association and basic property rights, and right to work laws somewhat restore that freedom.

The index has its pluses and minuses, which is which being a matter of one's views.

K.

Bull. Right to Work laws violate a basic premise of libertarianism. They prevent two groups from negotiating on any terms of a relationship. What precisely is libertarian about government dictating what conditions a group of workers can negotiate with their employers?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 12:50:09 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Bull. Right to Work laws violate a basic premise of libertarianism. They prevent two groups from negotiating on any terms of a relationship. What precisely is libertarian about government dictating what conditions a group of workers can negotiate with their employers?


He thinks telling people that if they want the benefit of a union, that they have to pay the dues, is unfair. He thinks making people join a union is unfair. He thinks that this keeps people from freely associating.

What he does not seem to understand is it is a worse restriction of freedom to tell people that they CANNOT join a union, freely associate with each other, ban together for more power.... then to tell those who want the strength of a union that they have to pay dues for it.

Edited to add, it goes to benefits from living in society v the freedoms one loses as a result.... you have to trade something to get something. There is no free lunch. You have to pay taxes for services, and you have to behave yourself to live in a community... don't like that, then be a hermit... don't like unions, find a nonunion job

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/16/2011 12:51:58 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 12:57:25 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Let me put it another way, my mom sees a cardiologist who has told her "no transfats". I think I should send her your information and tell her that her specialist is wrong, and that you are right...

Keep your "freedom".

Yanno, if you can't read a label you can always ask. Chances are you two aren't the only people in the world...

Which is a thought some of those other people (you know, "them") might appreciate you keeping in mind now and then.



Logic and rational thought will never work with that poster... don't even try.  Don'tcha know her life is a representation of everyone's life?!!




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It's only kinky the first time!!!

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 12:59:42 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Well, that's the case with this ranking too.

They took Republican agenda items, declared them "freedom," and then applied them to the states.

Consequently, it's not a measure of "freedom," but a measure of Republicanism.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 1:04:13 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail



I was curious of the outcome and could easily chart the last two elections... again, did it for grins and giggles -- but still found the results interesting... or, per Mr. Spock "fascinating".






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 1:05:26 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		yes, essentially and wholly meaningless however. cute colors, would look good with an anais nin quote there.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 1:05:47 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

I don't carry a gun...but hey, if I can smoke, sip a cold one, gamble and pay less taxes, I think life is pretty good!


I carry a gun and smoke but I don't go to bars or casinos so it works for me too.
Gun and Drinking mix like drinking and driving.



Both.


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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 1:06:30 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

yes, essentially and wholly meaningless however. cute colors, would look good with an anais nin quote there.



You are so mean... but that is what I like about you....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 60
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