RE: hang on a mo...

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juliaoceania -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:23:23 AM)
quote: In layman's terms, it is a hard decision to make. As you're talking about the termination of a life or potential life... however you want to see it, it should be hard. The decision to take that action should never be easy and without thought. In a perfect world to me, it should also be rare. Whether the number is one or one-million, the end goal should be that no fetuses are casually aborted without deliberate and thoughtful consideration... as an "easy" way out of a tough situation brought on by reckless behavior or due to lack of adequate resources and support. As I'm sure you'll agree, we don't live in a perfect world. Well, here is the rub for me with that.... We cannot legislate "deliberate and thoughtful consideration". We have to rely on the doctor/patient relationship to direct the decision making process. As I have said many times, I do not think it is wise to involve the government into the doctor/patient relationship and the decisions regarding course of treatment, unless the procedure can be shown to be unsafe for the primary patient. Any roadblocks that would be put into place to make abortion services harder to access would not lead to anymore "thoughtful consideration", it would only lead to a lack of these services for women who need them most. I do not know if you are aware of the reasons why MANY women get abortions, but one of the top reasons is due to being involved in an abusive relationship. The women I have known who have had this procedure did so for one of two reasons, failure of birth control method, or because the man they were involved with was highly abusive. They did not want to bring a baby into such a relationship, so they opted to abort. I do not know how "thoughtful consideration" would help such women... I think that they are considering what life will be like, not only for themselves, but the child that will be brought into the picture. Making such women wait for abortion services seems cruel to me, especially since it maybe hard for them to get the time and the resources just to visit the clinic to terminate such a pregnancy. As far as resources to bring up children, we can ameliorate this issue by providing resources for women with children, instead of cutting them at every opportunity. Loving all the babies until their born seems a tad hypocritical to me.

FirmhandKY -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:25:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl True, 1.2% of the population of women between the ages of 15 - 44 that have an abortion each year, to me, is rare enough. Not ducking a response to Orion yet, but I had to ask about this figure. First, what is you source? Second, would not any of the following be a more pertinent figure to discuss? The percentage of women who got pregnant that have an abortion instead of a live-birth (broken down by age would be interesting)? The percentage of women who have had multiple abortions? The percentage of women who have had an abortion, and later regret the loss of a child? The percentage of abortions done due to causes such as incest or real "life threatening" complications to the mother. The percentages of abortions, by trimester. The percentages of abortions, by race of the mother. The percentages of abortion by economic status of the mother. Just a few thoughts. If you want to start tossing numbers around, and ask what they mean, let's get into a real, honest-to-go discussion. Or you can just back up the wagon on the issue, if you want. Firm

Lucylastic -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:27:32 AM)
TO Force a woman to carry to full term is what is wrong. To say a woman has no rights over her body once she is pregnant is abhorrent.

Kirata -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:27:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Ron Paul has introduced federal anti abortion bills that would make all abortions murder. The bill you referenced finds "a significant likelihood that actual human life exists from conception" and therefore "recognizes that each State has the authority to protect lives of unborn children residing in the jurisdiction of that State." Accordingly, it reserves to the states the right to prohibit, limit, or regulate the performance of abortions and/or the provision of public assistance for the performance of abortions without right of review by the Supreme Court. It does not require that the states do so. It does not make abortion a federal offense. And the word "murder" is nowhere in the bill. Thank you for your time. K.

FirmhandKY -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:29:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata It is religious zealotry to demand that one's religious views be invested with the power of law. I would equate the specific "religious view" as a "moral view"...I'd say that all laws are based on a person's or group of persons' "moral view" of the world. Equating one's religious view with morality is the basis of Christian Reconstructionism. All law is religious in nature, and every non-Biblical law-order represents an anti-Christian religion. ~ R. J. Rushdoon I'm not making that argument, K. I'm saying that all laws have a foundation in morality. Morality - everyone has (except, perhaps, psychopaths). Often (all - depending on you wish to define "religious belief") times, morality of an individual or of a society is based in the religious traditions of a society, which then forms the basis of morality of the laws of the society. Firm

juliaoceania -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:33:27 AM)
fast reply http://women.webmd.com/tc/abortion-reasons-women-choose-abortion Each year, nearly 1.2 million American women have an abortion to end a pregnancy.2 The most common reasons women consider abortion are: Birth control (contraceptive) failure. Over half of all women who have an abortion used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.2 Inability to support or care for a child. To end an unwanted pregnancy. To prevent the birth of a child with birth defects or severe medical problems. Such defects are often unknown until routine second-trimester tests are done. Pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. Physical or mental conditions that endanger the woman's health if the pregnancy is continued. In the United States, 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks (first trimester) of pregnancy. Most of these are done within the first 9 weeks of pregnancy.2 Very few abortions are done after 16 weeks of pregnancy. But some women have to delay abortions because they have trouble with paying for, finding, or traveling to an abortion specialist. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf A very in depth qualitative and quantitative academic study

SilverMark -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:33:28 AM)
The percentage of women who have had an abortion, and later regret the loss of a child? I would bet most of them...it's not an easy decision...doesn't make it wrong for them on a personal basis. The percentages of abortions, by race of the mother. Totally irrelavent and would be considered a racist thing to even ask. No Firm, I would never call you a racist, but give it a few reads and someone will. I truly, truly dislike this subject and if these 2 things hadn't caught my eye, I would not even venture an opinion. I would say in relavence to where the discussion started, this is one social issue that has been hung on the Republican party's neck, based on the fringe elements of their group. Not all people who oppose abortion are zealots, but the most vocal sure seem to be!

juliaoceania -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:35:34 AM)
Most women do not regret abortion http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html MYTH: Many women come to regret their abortions later. Research indicates that relief is the most common emotional response following abortion, and that psychological distress appears to be greatest before, rather than after, an abortion. There are undoubtedly some women who, in hindsight, wish that they had made different choices, and the majority would prefer never to have become pregnant when the circumstances were not right for them. When a wanted pregnancy is ended (for medical reasons, for example) women may experience a sense of loss and grief. As with any major change or decision involving loss, a crisis later in life sometimes leads to a temporary resurfacing of sad feelings surrounding the abortion. Women at risk for poor post-abortion adjustment are those who do not get the support they need, or whose abortion decisions are actively opposed by people who

FirmhandKY -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:45:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark The percentages of abortions, by race of the mother. Totally irrelavent and would be considered a racist thing to even ask. No Firm, I would never call you a racist, but give it a few reads and someone will. Interesting take, Mark. I am aware of the danger, but if (big if) tazzy wants to play the game, then she'll find some interesting statistics about the races of women who receive abortion. The term "genocide" has been bandied about occasionally. In other words, by this measure, the argument can be made that those who support abortion on demand, any time, for any reason, are racist in the affect of those policies. Firm

SilverMark -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:51:17 AM)
http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/race.asp out of curiosity, I had to look

SilverMark -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:54:19 AM)
Older statistics...shold have been more specific... Much more up to date, and better info. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

juliaoceania -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:55:40 AM)
Hmmmm..... Education, Residence, and Income Of the women obtaining abortions in 2000: 57% had some college education; 88% were from metropolitan areas; and 57% percent were low-income.4 It would seem that if race plays a factor in the decision not to have kids, it would be because of the economic divide based on race in this country, and the way to stop that is by providing more economic opportunities to women who are low income so that they do not feel the need to abort their children. Instead of just bandying about the numbers of pregnancies terminated by women of a certain race being "genocide", it seems much more productive to ameliorate the causes of abortion... meaning LISTENING to the women who say "I could not afford another child, or I could not afford children period".... 74% gave that as the primary reason for terminating a pregnancy... they didn't say "I am terminating my pregnancy because of discrimination"

tazzygirl -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 11:57:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl True, 1.2% of the population of women between the ages of 15 - 44 that have an abortion each year, to me, is rare enough. Not ducking a response to Orion yet, but I had to ask about this figure. First, what is you source? Second, would not any of the following be a more pertinent figure to discuss? The percentage of women who got pregnant that have an abortion instead of a live-birth (broken down by age would be interesting)? The percentage of women who have had multiple abortions? The percentage of women who have had an abortion, and later regret the loss of a child? The percentage of abortions done due to causes such as incest or real "life threatening" complications to the mother. The percentages of abortions, by trimester. The percentages of abortions, by race of the mother. The percentages of abortion by economic status of the mother. Just a few thoughts. If you want to start tossing numbers around, and ask what they mean, let's get into a real, honest-to-go discussion. Or you can just back up the wagon on the issue, if you want. Firm The problem with percentage of those women who... whatever it is you want them to have done... is a percentage of a percentage. The important part is that, according to the numbers you look for, 1.2 - 2% of women between 15 and 44 had abortions in 2008. Why is that not important? Is it more important to you than, say...88% of those happened in the first 12 weeks? Or that 61.8% happened before the first 9 weeks? Or that 54% used birth control within the month they became pregnant? Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children). - Answers your economic question. Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100-199% of the federal poverty level. - I fall into that group and never have had an abortion. Forty percent of pregnancies among white women, 69% among blacks and 54% among Hispanics are unintended - answers your race question. You are asking for how many rape /incest related abortions are performed each year. According to Guttmacher, in 2000 1%. Interestingly enough, on the 2011 fact sheet, they dont give a percentage at all. However, a chat from that same organization in 2005 gives these responses... Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus 13% Physical problem with my health 12 8% Parents want me to have an abortion 6% Was a victim of rape 1% Became pregnant as a result of incest <0.5% http://www.guttmacher.org/tables/370305/3711005t2.pdf quote: The percentage of women who have had an abortion, and later regret the loss of a child? So because they regret a decision they made.... and we have yet to explore why they regret that decision, they shouldnt be allowed to make that decision? About half of all U.S. women having an abortion have had one previously. .......... According to the 2006 Guttmacher Institute report Repeat Abortion in the United States, women having a second or higher-order abortion are substantially different from women having a first abortion in only two important ways: They are more than twice as likely to be age 30 or older and, even after controlling for age, almost twice as likely to already have had a child. (Among all women having an abortion, six in 10 are mothers.) Just as with women having their first abortion, however, the majority of women having their second or even their third abortion were using contraceptives during the time period in which they became pregnant. In fact, women having a repeat abortion are slightly more likely to have been using a highly effective hormonal method (e.g., the pill or an injectable). This finding refutes the notion that large numbers of women are relying on abortion as their primary method of birth control. Rather, it suggests that women having abortions—especially those having more than one—are trying hard to avoid unintended pregnancy, but are having trouble doing so. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/10/2/gpr100208.html http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html Firm, believe me, this isnt an issue I will ever back down from. You want to debate it, lets go.

tazzygirl -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 12:02:53 PM)
quote: I am aware of the danger, but if (big if) tazzy wants to play the game, then she'll find some interesting statistics about the races of women who receive abortion. The race only makes a difference in the economic situation, the number of children they already have, their educational level and how well they are instructed in some forms of birth control. To try and use it as a reason against abortions is ludicrous.

Lucylastic -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 12:07:01 PM)
Choosing boys over girls is nowhere near the issue in the US coppare to asia/india. Women would find ways to abort females or leave them to die, fathers would smother the female child, or the mother, its still an issue but shouldnt halt abortions.Genocide isnt going to happen by stopping all abortions in the US for ANY race

tazzygirl -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 12:08:23 PM)
Yet I have witnessed a few mothers reject their newborn because of the sex.

juliaoceania -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 12:09:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I am aware of the danger, but if (big if) tazzy wants to play the game, then she'll find some interesting statistics about the races of women who receive abortion. The race only makes a difference in the economic situation, the number of children they already have, their educational level and how well they are instructed in some forms of birth control. To try and use it as a reason against abortions is ludicrous. If anything it is a reason to provide targeted social services to certain women who are in danger of having an unwanted pregnancy... meaning vocational training, job assistance, health insurance, etc etc etc You know, the things that help keep a woman from having an unwanted pregnancy that she cannot afford.

Kirata -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 12:10:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I'm saying that all laws have a foundation in morality. Your statement presupposes that there is such a thing as "morality." If there is, then clearly it is possible for someone's views on what is moral to be wrong. In fact, of course, there are only different views of morality, which give rise to different and even diametrically opposed laws. Your statement would be accurate if it read: "All laws have a foundation in beliefs." Arguments about whether or not abortion should be legal, legal up to a point and restricted beyond that point, legal only in specific circumstances, or illegal altogether rest solely on people's beliefs and feelings. Invoking the spectre of "morality" is unproductive incendiary nonsense. K.

tazzygirl -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 12:17:04 PM)
quote: If anything it is a reason to provide targeted social services to certain women who are in danger of having an unwanted pregnancy... meaning vocational training, job assistance, health insurance, etc etc etc You know, the things that help keep a woman from having an unwanted pregnancy that she cannot afford. I cant tell you how many women have told me they didnt understand why they got pregnant, they were using birth control pills faithfully. Until we started doing more intense health assessments, and discovered many of them took the pills with OJ, or they were on an antibiotic, or had missed a dose or two and didnt realize they needed to augment their birth control as a result. Some even get pregnant because of a bout of diarrhea. Anyone know that some diabetic medications can interfere with birth control pills? Care to investigate the incidence of adult onset diabetes in the black community? Its far easier to look down on such people as being morally "inferior".

Lucylastic -> RE: hang on a mo... (6/18/2011 12:22:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I am aware of the danger, but if (big if) tazzy wants to play the game, then she'll find some interesting statistics about the races of women who receive abortion. The race only makes a difference in the economic situation, the number of children they already have, their educational level and how well they are instructed in some forms of birth control. To try and use it as a reason against abortions is ludicrous. If anything it is a reason to provide targeted social services to certain women who are in danger of having an unwanted pregnancy... meaning vocational training, job assistance, health insurance, etc etc etc You know, the things that help keep a woman from having an unwanted pregnancy that she cannot afford. Not very likely if the RR get their way with : more than 900 bills concerning reproductive health were brought forward before the end of March. By contrast, according to NARAL Pro-Choice America, only 175 anti-choice bills were moving through the states at the same time a year ago. I posted the rest of this in post titled "Eroding womens rights one bill at a time" only 3 responses tho.

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