RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless?

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Kirata -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 11:47:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Have kinda gone around with this with Kirata previously, there's not enough data and what there is doesn't pass the razor test... There isn't enough data and it isn't good enough, chorus, repeat. Nevermind that none of the theories that "explain" the phenomenon have ever been shown to be correct. That's just a detail. The important thing is to dismiss such nonsense from serious consideration. K.

Kirata -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 1:57:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I tend to shun approaches that concentrate too much on abandoning one's ego... The word "ego" carries a lot of baggage, and therein lies much mischievious verbiage. In its simplest sense it just means "I". And if you had to abandon the "I" in order (say for example) to experience Nirvana, then we'd never hear about it. How could the "I" remember an experience it never had? K.

juliaoceania -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 2:00:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I tend to shun approaches that concentrate too much on abandoning one's ego... The word "ego" carries a lot of baggage, and therein lies much mischievious verbiage. In its simplest sense it just means "I". And if you had to abandon the "I" in order (say for example) to experience Nirvana, then we'd never hear about it. How could the "I" remember an experience it never had? K. it is the entire "life is suffering" stuff that I never bought into. Life isn't just suffering, and the ego isn't this boogeyman that causes suffering. To be human is to have desire, enjoy being human and embrace your desire. And even the desire to be rid of the ego is a desire, and there is the paradox that keeps anyone from reaching Nirvana My view, do what you can to stop your inner resistance, that is the only thing that has led to me being a more peaceful sorta person.

tweakabelle -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 2:08:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Mathematics is founded on theoretical constructs, with can be changed to create alternate mathematics. The truths exist only with the realm of the assumed constructs. Yes. Maths is a symbolic language. Though it is far more rigourous than most spoken languages, ultimately it suffers from the same flaws as any other language. Speaking of language, earlier in the thread, I posed a question that no one thus far has been game enough to answer. It was: Can meaning exist outside its symbolic representation (eg language, Art, numbers, signifiers etc?) It seems to me that the implications of whatever position people take on this question are profound.

juliaoceania -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 2:14:47 PM)
quote: Can meaning exist outside its symbolic representation (eg language, Art, numbers, signifiers etc?) That is a little bit like chicken and the egg, and I am not sure that any of us can answer that.. I can say that the human experience is not just a visual one. We are programmed for language. We are programmed for signifiers. I could say that things have "personal" meaning for me, and that would be be accurate, there are things that have had personal meaning for me that I have never communicated to another. But the language to describe that meaning was inside of me. There are people who think mostly in terms of the visual, and there are people who think in terms of language. My thoughts are language reliant. I think in words predominantly, but not everyone does according to cognitive science. So, is meaning reliant on language? Someone like me could not answer that question, because I perceived life through the prism of words.

tweakabelle -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 2:42:06 PM)
Do you think it makes that much difference? The colour red for example, can signify danger .. or passion ....or blood ..... or stop (traffic lights) .. or bureaucracy (red tape) ... or importance (red letter day/event) and so on. While I can see where you're going, I'm not sure arguing that the interpretation of visual signs is subject to a different interpretation regime than non-visual signs really works. For me the point about the difference between personal and shared meanings is more pertinent. Love could mean everything for one person but that same love could be of zero significance to another. Though, I suppose it could also be said that are real difficulties about the representation of "inner" feelings. Think of the difficulties of describing the tastes of food for instance. Far too often we are forced to rely on metaphor.

juliaoceania -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 4:36:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Do you think it makes that much difference? The colour red for example, can signify danger .. or passion ....or blood ..... or stop (traffic lights) .. or bureaucracy (red tape) ... or importance (red letter day/event) and so on. While I can see where you're going, I'm not sure arguing that the interpretation of visual signs is subject to a different interpretation regime than non-visual signs really works. For me the point about the difference between personal and shared meanings is more pertinent. Love could mean everything for one person but that same love could be of zero significance to another. Though, I suppose it could also be said that are real difficulties about the representation of "inner" feelings. Think of the difficulties of describing the tastes of food for instance. Far too often we are forced to rely on metaphor. I wrote a paper about neanderthals and the use of symbols to communicate ideas as we know they had from the archaeological and Paleontological record. I do not know if it is a real productive use of our time here, but neanderthals painted large rock surfaces with pigments, and we do not know why they did this, but one logical guess is that they were communicating some larger idea to other bands of neanderthal, which is further buoyed by the fact that there had to be genetic exchanges between bands for neanderthal to survive for so long. In other words, their groups were so small that they had to get mates from other groups to remain genetically viable. There is also evidence of short range trade routes because parent material for tools could be found to cover long distances. We think Neanderthal was a cousin, not a direct ancestor, so what does this mean for modern humans (neanderthals were human, just a different kind of human)? That our use of symbols is a genetic carryover from other primates that predate our existence. I do not know that one needs words to communicate ideas, but, I do think that in order to communicate, you have to be geared towards symbolism. I also think symbolic thought is something that primate kind (not necessarily all primates, but there are others that do think symbolically) does. I think meaning is communicated through symbols. I think a species has to be capable of symbolic thought in order to have meaning. I think that language and culture are crucial to the construction of meaning. If you look at "wild children" (kids raised without culture) they usually have bad mental deficits related to acquiring language, and trouble communicating beyond basic biological needs. This is because our brains are geared towards acquiring language by 2 or 3 years old, and when such children are deprived of language in this window, they usually do not acquire it.... ever. I do not know that they can communicate meaning, or what meaning life has for these rare individuals. Or on a more philosophical and political slant, look at 1984, when wanting to control people you limit the words they use, and thereby limiting their ability for complex thought? That might be stretching the case, but there is conflicting information about verbal acuity and being able to verbalize thoughts... or even conceive of certain thoughts.

eihwaz -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 5:12:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle [...] I posed a question that no one thus far has been game enough to answer. It was: Can meaning exist outside its symbolic representation (eg language, Art, numbers, signifiers etc?) While I'm not game enough to answer definitively, I'll propose an analogy which may help in thinking about the question: Does information exist outside the medium in which it is rendered? (I'm using the term media in a broad sense to include, for example, the mind/brain.) It seems that it does, since it's possible to translate the same information between media. However the only access we have to the information is when it's rendered in some medium. Whether there is such a thing as 'objective meaning' is irrelevant since our only access to it is through language (broadly construed). I don't think this completely answers the question, but might illuminate an aspect of it.

eihwaz -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 5:16:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Far too often we are forced to rely on metaphor. Quelle horreur! [;)]

juliaoceania -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 5:25:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eihwaz quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle [...] I posed a question that no one thus far has been game enough to answer. It was: Can meaning exist outside its symbolic representation (eg language, Art, numbers, signifiers etc?) While I'm not game enough to answer definitively, I'll propose an analogy which may help in thinking about the question: Does information exist outside the medium in which it is rendered? (I'm using the term media in a broad sense to include, for example, the mind/brain.) It seems that it does, since it's possible to translate the same information between media. However the only access we have to the information is when it's rendered in some medium. Whether there is such a thing as 'objective meaning' is irrelevant since our only access to it is through language (broadly construed). I don't think this completely answers the question, but might illuminate an aspect of it. My answer in a long round about way, I do not think we can know

tweakabelle -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 5:31:57 PM)
quote: I think meaning is communicated through symbols. I think a species has to be capable of symbolic thought in order to have meaning. I think that language and culture are crucial to the construction of meaning. If you look at "wild children" (kids raised without culture) they usually have bad mental deficits related to acquiring language, and trouble communicating beyond basic biological needs. This is because our brains are geared towards acquiring language by 2 or 3 years old, and when such children are deprived of language in this window, they usually do not acquire it.... ever. I do not know that they can communicate meaning, or what meaning life has for these rare individuals. Yes. My feeling is you are spot on here. It is even argued by some that the our sophisticated ability to manipulate signs is the singular defining feature of humans. To me, it seems unlikely that the basics of communication have changed all that much since the Neanderthals. rawtape suggested an interesting potential basis for the physical genesis of communication earlier in the thread. I doubt that the advances in communications media have altered the basics elements. Unpacking and examining those basics can be illuminating. One key element here is that of shared meaning. For successful communication to occur, both the person transmitting the communication and the person receiving the communication must have a prior agreement on how to interpret the particular symbol (word, sound, image, sign) communicated. To put that another way both parties must agree in advance on meaning of the sign used. We all do this all the time when for example we use language (or any other code) to communicate. We agree that certain sounds/words will represent certain things, that they will have particular specific meanings. We're just so used to it (and good at it) that it happens 'automatically' and feels 'natural'. So most of us don't examine or question it. But without this process meaning cannot be communicated - in fact, without it, no communication happens. The importance of shared meaning in communication is one reason why I have insisted that there's a non-corporeal element in the expression/operation of consciousness. quote: Or on a more philosophical and political slant, look at 1984, when wanting to control people you limit the words they use, and thereby limiting their ability for complex thought? That might be stretching the case, but there is conflicting information about verbal acuity and being able to verbalize thoughts... or even conceive of certain thoughts. I don't believe you're stretching the case here at all. It is argued by some that our structures of thought (consciousness?) are moulded by language and the other codes we use to communicate. And controlling the language, the words used effectively determines the outcomes in many a political struggle. Just looking round today, look at the importance women gays indigenous people and others have placed on their choosing the terms of discourses circulating around them, whether that's re-claiming a word ("Slutwalks/queer etc") or demanding the right to self definition. Nietzsche asserted that everything is secondary to the right to name (verbalise/define) things. In a sense, everything else is (literally) anomalous. So you've got some pretty heavyweight company ! [:D]

tweakabelle -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 5:55:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eihwaz quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle [...] I posed a question that no one thus far has been game enough to answer. It was: Can meaning exist outside its symbolic representation (eg language, Art, numbers, signifiers etc?) While I'm not game enough to answer definitively, I'll propose an analogy which may help in thinking about the question: Does information exist outside the medium in which it is rendered? (I'm using the term media in a broad sense to include, for example, the mind/brain.) It seems that it does, since it's possible to translate the same information between media. However the only access we have to the information is when it's rendered in some medium. Whether there is such a thing as 'objective meaning' is irrelevant since our only access to it is through language (broadly construed). I don't think this completely answers the question, but might illuminate an aspect of it. What a thoughtful response! Thank you. It seems to me you are effectively saying meaning can only be communicated through media. And unless it's communicable, it's irrelevant. So it doesn't matter whether it exists outside of communication. It seems to me that the implication of this is that, for you, meaning is socially constructed. Or to put that another way you probably agree with Wittgenstein (see my signature below) Does love have a meaning for you (I know it does, just asking [:D])? If so, how do you reconcile that meaning with the above?

xssve -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 6:15:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Have kinda gone around with this with Kirata previously, there's not enough data and what there is doesn't pass the razor test... There isn't enough data and it isn't good enough, chorus, repeat. Nevermind that none of the theories that "explain" the phenomenon have ever been shown to be correct. That's just a detail. The important thing is to dismiss such nonsense from serious consideration. K. All I'm saying is, while it's an intriguing prospect, until there is some more compelling evidence, as far I'm concerned it's beating a dead horse. By all means, discuss whatever you like, but I've said all I have to say on the subject, so, as you were. Consciousness period is more than complicated enough for me without rewriting the laws of physics.

juliaoceania -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 6:16:11 PM)
quote: The importance of shared meaning in communication is one reason why I have insisted that there's a non-corporeal element in the expression/operation of consciousness. Like the Jungian collective unconscious, where human beings have certain archetypes across many cultures. Either those things would have to be a part of our genetic heritage (the "god" gene) or they would have to be in some nebulous place, an energy that is not corporeal. There is also the possibility that human beings may communicate at a telepathic level, and though that might seem fanciful on one level, on another we just may not have the equipment to measure such communication.... quote: I don't believe you're stretching the case here at all. It is argued by some that our structures of thought (consciousness?) are moulded by language and the other codes we use to communicate. And controlling the language, the words used effectively determines the outcomes in many a political struggle. Just looking round today, look at the importance women gays indigenous people and others have placed on their choosing the terms of discourses circulating around them, whether that's re-claiming a word ("Slutwalks/queer etc") or demanding the right to self definition. Or even the idea that reality is something that can be created. It does not matter what the economy is really doing as long as people have "confidence" in it. The value of money is what we "believe" it to have.... etc etc etc Co-construction of reality... goes back to Hegel and his idealists..

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 6:20:33 PM)
I have not read any of the responses and I have no intention of doing so. Human consciousness is applicable to that human. Every now and then we connect. The context involved with meaning or no meaning is is wholly situation driven. This is not a question that can be answered beyond the ephemeral second. JMO

Kirata -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 6:23:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve I've said all I have to say on the subject... Consciousness period is more than complicated enough for me without rewriting the laws of physics. Well okay, that's fine... but I don't see what "laws of physics" would have to be rewritten. K.

juliaoceania -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 6:25:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I have not read any of the responses and I have no intention of doing so. Human consciousness is applicable to that human. Every now and then we connect. The context involved with meaning or no meaning is is wholly situation driven. This is not a question that can be answered beyond the ephemeral second. JMO How sad, I wish you had been willing to comb through the responses... this has been a very civil and wonderful exchange of ideas...

tweakabelle -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 6:36:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I have not read any of the responses and I have no intention of doing so. Human consciousness is applicable to that human. Every now and then we connect. The context involved with meaning or no meaning is is wholly situation driven. This is not a question that can be answered beyond the ephemeral second. JMO How sad, I wish you had been willing to comb through the responses... this has been a very civil and wonderful exchange of ideas... It's an interesting perspective though ....... As I understand her view, it requires a separation between consciousness, meaning and the effects of both of those to work. I'd take some convincing that meanings and their effects can be cleaved apart so neatly or cleanly. And if they can't perhaps things aren't that ephemeral after all ......

juliaoceania -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 6:38:30 PM)
I would think that we "connect" through most of our lives. A good portion of most of our lives is spent with others in a social capacity exchanging meaning. Even here we are doing it even if we are physically alone.

tweakabelle -> RE: Human Consciousness - Meaningful or Meaningless? (6/25/2011 7:00:27 PM)
I have a friend who lives her life a little like Chatte's recipe. For this one, life is permanently in the now, in the absolute moment. Nothing precedes the 'now' nor does the 'now' influence anything in the future. Her life is a bit like a film reel where a series of stills are linked by celluloid tape. Her life is a series of disconnected 'nows' or stills linked only by a chronological flow. She's highly intelligent, incisive, very engaging and funny and great fun to be with. Problem is that this moment's opinion won't be the same as ten minute's ago, or a day ago ...So one minute white is white and the next black is white .... One moment X is the most wonderful person in the world, the next X is a vile monster .....But for her, whatever is in the 'now' is her absolute truth and reality ........ and of course, her 'reality' and other's 'realities' have a discontinuous relationship ....... I don't have to point out that most people assess her as seriously disturbed too do I?

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