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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 8:37:57 AM   
Moonhead


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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 10:10:53 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

hey man, leave the Jayhawks out of this.



I will be happy too,once kansans learn to leave their religious views out of the political proccess.Till than ....fuck the jayhawks !

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 12:49:30 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Is there a political party in the US heavily influenced by radical islam? Are there muslim politicans trying to force their version of morality upon the rest of us? Are muslims killing doctors in Kansas? Is there a state or national political party platform full of ideas backed by radical islamists?

But if that was the case, then it would make sense for freedom loving people to vote against Muslims at all levels eh?

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/25/2011 12:50:37 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 1:02:11 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Is there a political party in the US heavily influenced by radical islam? Are there muslim politicans trying to force their version of morality upon the rest of us? Are muslims killing doctors in Kansas? Is there a state or national political party platform full of ideas backed by radical islamists?

But if that was the case, then it would make sense for freedom loving people to vote against Muslims at all levels eh?

No, it would make sense to vote against that political party.

Nice try at a false equivalence though.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 1:03:04 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Is there a political party in the US heavily influenced by radical islam? Are there muslim politicans trying to force their version of morality upon the rest of us? Are muslims killing doctors in Kansas? Is there a state or national political party platform full of ideas backed by radical islamists?

But if that was the case, then it would make sense for freedom loving people to vote against Muslims at all levels eh?

K.




There happen to be a total of 2--count them 2 Muslims in national office. And no, one of them is not the President. They are both Congressmen, I believe.

Now how many Republicans do we have who are working to turn this country into some kind of theocratic plutocracy?? Answer: Almost all of them.

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 2:02:12 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Nice try at a false equivalence though.

Here's the false equivalence...

The sooner people who value their freedom wake up to the Christian Reconstructionists trying to institute a theocracy and start voting against Republicans at all levels the better.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 2:15:58 PM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The sooner people who value their freedom wake up to the Christian Reconstructionists trying to institute a theocracy and start voting against Republicans at all levels the better.

K.



I would suggest cleaning up your own house and getting the Christian reconstructionists/dominionists out of power, then. As things are, those people make up both the party leadership and base.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you're a Republican, which is fine. However, as a non-Christian you're a member of a non-vocal and highly marginalized faction of your own party, and I can't understand how you would tacitly accept that let alone attempt to defend it.

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 2:31:43 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: errantgeek

I would suggest...

I would suggest you stop assuming things and consider your apparent willingness to sacrifice fair-mindedness. I have been one of the most vocal members of this forum when it comes to drawing attention to the Christian Right's goals and increasingly dangerous political power. But using that as a club with which to bash Republicans as a class is not only a cheap shot, it's part of the problem.

Before we reprise a topic that's been done before, the following links may help bring you up to speed:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3697191
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3700391
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3700731

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/25/2011 3:10:17 PM >

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 3:21:48 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: errantgeek

I would suggest...

I would suggest you stop assuming things and consider your apparent willingness to sacrifice fair-mindedness. I have been one of the most vocal members of this forum when it comes to drawing attention to the Christian Right's goals and increasingly dangerous political power. But using that as a club with which to bash Republicans as a class is not only a cheap shot, it's part of the problem.

Before we reprise a topic that's been done before, the following links may help bring you up to speed:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3697191
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3700391
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3700731

K.



The problem is how will traditional republicans take back their party from the Dominionists? The corporate big money supports the Dominionists. The state parties in the states vital to republican electoral chances on the national level are completely taken over by Dominionists. All the polling shows the evangelical base that supports the Dominionists is the single largest voting block in Republican primaries.

The only options I see are for the non RR republicans to leave the party and found a new center right party or for the GOP to lose election after election until they are so marginalized that the Dominionists give up and go away for a couple of generations as happened after Scopes.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 4:30:44 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The problem is how will traditional republicans take back their party from the Dominionists...

It's not just a problem for the Republican Party. It's a problem for the country. First of all, support for the Christian Right does not depend exclusively on Republicans, nor do all Republicans support Christian Right positions. More seriously, however, the Republican Party is not the Christian Right's only target. They are assiduously busy co-opting the military as well. To frame the issue simply as a problem of the Republican Party is dangerously short-sighted, and serves no other purpose than to fuel business-as-usual partisan bitching at the expense of leaving the full magnitude of the threat out of the picture.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/25/2011 5:29:51 PM >

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 11:07:17 PM   
imperatrixx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
It's not just a problem for the Republican Party. It's a problem for the country. First of all, support for the Christian Right does not depend exclusively on Republicans, nor do all Republicans support Christian Right positions. More seriously, however, the Republican Party is not the Christian Right's only target. They are assiduously busy co-opting the military as well. To frame the issue simply as a problem of the Republican Party is dangerously short-sighted, and serves no other purpose than to fuel business-as-usual partisan bitching at the expense of leaving the full magnitude of the threat out of the picture.

K.[/font][/size]


Of course it's true that not all Republicans support Christian Right positions, but considering the group of potential candidates in 2012 is all pro-life (and all but one took a pledge to defund Planned Parenthood) you have to admit that seems to be the strategy the party as a whole is taking.

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/25/2011 11:23:02 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

Of course it's true that not all Republicans support Christian Right positions, but considering the group of potential candidates in 2012 is all pro-life (and all but one took a pledge to defund Planned Parenthood) you have to admit that seems to be the strategy the party as a whole is taking.

Where did I say otherwise?

My point is, this is about more than just the internal politics of the Republican Party. Making it about "Republicans" not only tars a lot of people who can't stand the Christian Right, it spares anyone else who supports the Christian Right's agenda and, worst of all, totally ignores the magnitude of the problem. We need to expose the activities of the Christian Right, in the military, in politics, and everywhere else, not just use them for our own partisan gain as a handy club with which to bash "Republicans".

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/25/2011 11:49:10 PM >

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/26/2011 5:16:45 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The problem is how will traditional republicans take back their party from the Dominionists...

It's not just a problem for the Republican Party. It's a problem for the country. First of all, support for the Christian Right does not depend exclusively on Republicans, nor do all Republicans support Christian Right positions. More seriously, however, the Republican Party is not the Christian Right's only target. They are assiduously busy co-opting the military as well. To frame the issue simply as a problem of the Republican Party is dangerously short-sighted, and serves no other purpose than to fuel business-as-usual partisan bitching at the expense of leaving the full magnitude of the threat out of the picture.

K.


And not all those on the left oppose them. In 2008, while people were crying about the religious right, the ones on the left killed the last try at legal marriage in CA.


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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/26/2011 9:06:30 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
But using that as a club with which to bash Republicans as a class is not only a cheap shot, it's part of the problem.

Particularly as the Democrats are just as keen to play the Emu to the moral minority's Rod Hull as the Republicans are...

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/26/2011 1:18:35 PM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

My point is, this is about more than just the internal politics of the Republican Party. Making it about "Republicans" not only tars a lot of people who can't stand the Christian Right, it spares anyone else who supports the Christian Right's agenda and, worst of all, totally ignores the magnitude of the problem. We need to expose the activities of the Christian Right, in the military, in politics, and everywhere else, not just use them for our own partisan gain as a handy club with which to bash "Republicans".

K.[/font][/size]


That's entirely fine, but this line of conversation is about internal politics of the Republican party. The express mention of that does not exclude the problems of Christian dominionist influence in other spheres, that's just not the topic of conversation. This is especially true when the other spheres of influence you mentioned have a high level of overlap with partisan politics, and these spheres of influence are targeted specifically for the achievement and consolidation of political power.

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/26/2011 1:21:27 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: errantgeek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

My point is, this is about more than just the internal politics of the Republican Party. Making it about "Republicans" not only tars a lot of people who can't stand the Christian Right, it spares anyone else who supports the Christian Right's agenda and, worst of all, totally ignores the magnitude of the problem. We need to expose the activities of the Christian Right, in the military, in politics, and everywhere else, not just use them for our own partisan gain as a handy club with which to bash "Republicans".

K.[/font][/size]


That's entirely fine, but this line of conversation is about internal politics of the Republican party. The express mention of that does not exclude the problems of Christian dominionist influence in other spheres, that's just not the topic of conversation. This is especially true when the other spheres of influence you mentioned have a high level of overlap with partisan politics, and these spheres of influence are targeted specifically for the achievement and consolidation of political power.

Exacty right. If the republican party marginalizes the Dominionists their power gains in other places will be much less worrisome. If not then those other maneuvers are extremely endangering this nation.

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/26/2011 1:28:19 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

If the republican party marginalizes the Dominionists their power gains in other places will be much less worrisome. If not then those other maneuvers are extremely endangering this nation.

If we assume that the Republican Party has been co-opted, how precisely is the minority in this co-opted Party apparatus supposed to "marginalize" the majority? And if you attack "Republicans" as a class, instead of calling a spade a spade and attacking the Christian Right, how do you think that is going to help anything? You're just insulting the Republican voters who fucking agree with you!

K.

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/26/2011 2:33:47 PM   
errantgeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

If we assume that the Republican Party has been co-opted, how precisely is the minority in this co-opted Party apparatus supposed to "marginalize" the majority? And if you attack "Republicans" as a class, instead of calling a spade a spade and attacking the Christian Right, how do you think that is going to help anything? You're just insulting the Republican voters who fucking agree with you!

K.[/font][/size]


Stay home on election day. Throw protest votes at third-party candidates and blue dogs. Vote strategically. Basically, anything and everything that can be done to reject the influence and ideals of "Christian conservatism".

These people depend on two things internally to stay in power: the mobilization of their own faction and the apathy of their internal opponents. I hate to sound tactless, but mobilization is no issue for dominionists because their base is fundamentally stupid, being a perfect synthesis of uneducated, willfully ignorant, and relatively incapable of critical thought; responds to dog whistle politics; and gleefully votes against its own economic and even ideological self-interest. Really, why worry about minor things like internal consistency, well-founded platforms, and political efficacy when you can get people lining up at the polls by screaming "Obama is a Kenyan Muslim Socialist!".

For anyone not capable of the doublethink necessary to reconcile Jesus Christ and Ayn Rand, the Goldwater/Buckley-era conservatives, and social conservatives whose personal beliefs don't hinge upon fundamental misinterpretations of a 2,000 year old piece of fiction...why passively accept this? If the party has become nothing but a springboard for this whacko neofascist fusion of Christian dominion, Objectivism and corporatism, reject it. It's a bitch, but if Republicans continue to nominate whackos in primaries then lose generals because they've alienated Republican moderates and undecideds (and mobilize the left), sooner or later the party leadership will figure out it doesn't work. If that doesn't happen, then you can expect nothing but more of the same. That's exactly the problem Republicans face going into the 2012 presidential election: Obama would be very vulnerable to a strong Republican candidate, but nominating one of those is going to be a real fucker if not outright impossible thanks to the whackos that have been whipped into a frenzy over the last three years.

Hell, I'm so far to the left that I make Obama look like Genghis Khan, and if there were some way to resurrect Barry Goldwater and nominate him for President, despite his being one jingoist son of a bitch I'd vote for him in a heartbeat because he would be a damn sight better than the whacko fusion of progressivism and communitarianism that permeates the contemporary left. Hell, contemporary politics are so bad right now that were I a dyed-in-the-wool Marxist I'd be gleefully voting straight-ticket Republican every election, because the Christian dominionists and Republican candidates who cater to them in order to win elections are aggressively trying to implement the very precursors to the proletarian revolution Marx predicted.

< Message edited by errantgeek -- 6/26/2011 2:43:33 PM >

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/26/2011 3:01:10 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


How is this different from arguing that the sooner people who value their freedom wake up to the threat of Radical Islam and start shunning Muslims the better?

(Not to mention that not all Republicans are even Christians in the first place.)


What's the breakdown in KS? Who's supporting it?



Gov. Sam Brownback RAN on getting Kansas to be abortion free. He received slightly more that 63% of the vote. More than twice the next candidate.

One of the previous Atty. Gen. for Kansas was discussing starting a legal process against those who provide abortions to minors and do not report rape.

The breakdown is that the state population is anti-abortion. This is the purpose of federalism. The citizens of the state get to make these choices.

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RE: Christian Taliban In Kansas versus Roe v. Wade - 6/26/2011 4:48:59 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


How is this different from arguing that the sooner people who value their freedom wake up to the threat of Radical Islam and start shunning Muslims the better?

(Not to mention that not all Republicans are even Christians in the first place.)


What's the breakdown in KS? Who's supporting it?



Gov. Sam Brownback RAN on getting Kansas to be abortion free. He received slightly more that 63% of the vote. More than twice the next candidate.

One of the previous Atty. Gen. for Kansas was discussing starting a legal process against those who provide abortions to minors and do not report rape.

The breakdown is that the state population is anti-abortion. This is the purpose of federalism. The citizens of the state get to make these choices.

Wrong. The majority does not get to take away the minority's rights.

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