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Gibbs gave birth to a stillborn, and there is evidence she frequently did cocaine.

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Another important thing is that in all three cases, while all the groups are screaming about how horribly this will be for poor women, there is absolutely nothing saying these women were living in poverty. One would think that to support that argument, they would be pointing out how these poverty stricken women were the examples supporting their argument. Since they didn't, one can make the argument that they weren't living in poverty and so these groups are trying to spin the story to not show that conflict

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While current studies are unable to link cocaine use to adverse fetal developments, neither do they exclude cocaine as a potential fetotoxin.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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While current studies are unable to link cocaine use to adverse fetal developments, neither do they exclude cocaine as a potential fetotoxin.

Thats from the brief, tweak.

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In order to establish intent, it seems to me that cocaine's fetotoxicity would have to be established beyond doubt. If the experts don't know whether cocaine use is potentially fatal to a foetus, then how can an ordinary person be expected to know? And if an ordinary person cannot be reasonably expected to know that cocaine use is potentially fatal, then on what basis can intent be asserted?

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For the murder charge to make sense, it has to be established that Gibbs used cocaine knowing that it would potentially be fatal to her foetus. If this is impossible to establish (and on the basis of the above, it is) then she should never have been charged with murder. Possibly another charge (manslaughter?) but definitely not murder.

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How do we prove that drugs were involved?  Uh...an autopsy.  You find drugs in the infants system, how else would they have gotten there if not taken by the mother?

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Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.

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Amanda Kimbrough is one of the women who have been ensnared as a result of the law being applied in a wholly different way. During her pregnancy her foetus was diagnosed with possible Down's syndrome and doctors suggested she consider a termination, which Kimbrough declined as she is not in favour of abortion.

The baby was delivered by caesarean section prematurely in April 2008 and died 19 minutes after birth.

Six months later Kimbrough was arrested at home and charged with "chemical endangerment" of her unborn child on the grounds that she had taken drugs during the pregnancy – a claim she has denied.

"That shocked me, it really did," Kimbrough said. "I had lost a child, that was enough."

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One can only assume by your continued assertion on this that you believe an abortion can be sought at any time during the pregnancy. Medical tests can determine the development of the fetus and its liklihood of survival. If one child is born at 24 weeks and survives, statistically, 24 weeks has just become "viable." But that is in no way to be confused with "likely to survive." If a doctor induced labor at 24 weeks just because the mother wanted to continue being a drug addict, he would lose his license.

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You are really reaching here. According to your statements, a woman can do ANYTHING she wants while pregnant and not be held accountable. Being held accountable for knowingly engaging in behavior that will cause harm to an unborn child is NOT the same as "backdoor rights."

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You do not grasp all the factors of first degree murder (which is NOT simply premeditation).

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Again the LAW has available remedies for alcohol abuse of a pregnant woman who gives birth to an FAS baby. The woman will not maintain custody of her child. Obviously, she isn't going to be charged with murder if the baby is alive. If that baby dies as a result of FAS or the alcohol use of the mother, which can be proven through an autopsy, yes she can and should be charged with murder.

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The key point here is that there is ZERO evidence of a baby DYING because a mother smokes or drinks coffee or eats chocolate.

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ORIGINAL: domiguy

I would love for them to prosecute the soccer mom that doesn't stay on bed rest, who smokes or drinks through her pregnancy.

Now that would be fucking awesome to see Jane Everywoman rotting in prison because her embryo didn't have enough sticktoitiveness.

Yoga class might get you ten years up the river.

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

I thought in most of the US causing a death without intent was called manslaughter. And of course trumped up charges are consistently used to coerce defendants to take a lesser plea deal. I'd say it didn't work this time, otherwise there would be no publicity. Either that or it's political.

T^T

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Am I being asked to accept that the fact that the instrument chosen to effect the 'murder' (cocaine use) can't be established to be capable of causing murder is not grounds for reasonable doubt?

Dear oh dear! Judge Judy move over! I'm glad you've chosen a career in the caring professions and not in the law!

Actually whatever her fate Ms Gibbs ought to be happy that neither of us in involved in the legalities of her case. I don't believe I have the makings of a competent lawyer in me. And the wigs and gowns they make you wear here ... hideous!

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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How do we prove that drugs were involved?  Uh...an autopsy.  You find drugs in the infants system, how else would they have gotten there if not taken by the mother?

My impression is that this law does more than test for the presence of cocaine... from the OP

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Gibbs became pregnant aged 15, but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy. When prosecutors discovered that she had a cocaine habit – though there is no evidence that drug abuse had anything to do with the baby's death – they charged her with the "depraved-heart murder" of her child, which carries a mandatory life sentence.

Then from another link

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Amanda Kimbrough is one of the women who have been ensnared as a result of the law being applied in a wholly different way. During her pregnancy her foetus was diagnosed with possible Down's syndrome and doctors suggested she consider a termination, which Kimbrough declined as she is not in favour of abortion.

The baby was delivered by caesarean section prematurely in April 2008 and died 19 minutes after birth.

Six months later Kimbrough was arrested at home and charged with "chemical endangerment" of her unborn child on the grounds that she had taken drugs during the pregnancy – a claim she has denied.

"That shocked me, it really did," Kimbrough said. "I had lost a child, that was enough."

It seems to me that these women are being prosecuted with information obtained external to an autopsy... which was what I personally found so outrageous.

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One can only assume by your continued assertion on this that you believe an abortion can be sought at any time during the pregnancy. Medical tests can determine the development of the fetus and its liklihood of survival. If one child is born at 24 weeks and survives, statistically, 24 weeks has just become "viable." But that is in no way to be confused with "likely to survive." If a doctor induced labor at 24 weeks just because the mother wanted to continue being a drug addict, he would lose his license.

Actually your assumption is incorrect, like Tazzy, I do not think that if a fetus can survive outside of the mother that there should be an abortion. I make health exceptions. At the same time I do not think it is okay to charge women with a 20 year sentence for using drugs while pregnant because it is granting personhood to a fetus through the backdoor. I am pro choice.

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You are really reaching here. According to your statements, a woman can do ANYTHING she wants while pregnant and not be held accountable. Being held accountable for knowingly engaging in behavior that will cause harm to an unborn child is NOT the same as "backdoor rights."

You are really reaching here, this thread is not about the cost of caring for sick infants, it is about incarcerating pregnant women.

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You do not grasp all the factors of first degree murder (which is NOT simply premeditation).

Premeditation is one element of murder one.

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Again the LAW has available remedies for alcohol abuse of a pregnant woman who gives birth to an FAS baby. The woman will not maintain custody of her child. Obviously, she isn't going to be charged with murder if the baby is alive. If that baby dies as a result of FAS or the alcohol use of the mother, which can be proven through an autopsy, yes she can and should be charged with murder.

I know....taking away kids from alcoholics happens all of the time, it is still not criminal to drink while pregnant

This thread is not about FAS

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The key point here is that there is ZERO evidence of a baby DYING because a mother smokes or drinks coffee or eats chocolate.

Cigarette smoking isn't proven to cause low birthweigh t babies. premature babies, asthmatic babies, and increase the likelihood of SIDs? I will have to tell my OBGYN that, because of these risks I quit while pregnant

here, I actually provide the info I assert exists unlike some people

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080129125422.htm

http://quitsmoking.about.com/od/tobaccostatistics/a/SGRpregnancy.htm

http://sids-network.org/experts/smok.htm

It is highly dangerous and cause lifelong pain and suffering for a child to smoke while pregnant...

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As far as the rest, I quit reading when you wrote "squawking"... I figured if you wanted to have a real conversation you would post like a person in search of one...and I know, it isn't with everyone you are like this, just people you do not respect... me being one of those people. Not that I give a flying fuck, I don't respect you, either

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

I thought in most of the US causing a death without intent was called manslaughter. And of course trumped up charges are consistently used to coerce defendants to take a lesser plea deal. I'd say it didn't work this time, otherwise there would be no publicity. Either that or it's political.

T^T

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You weren't talking about aborting viable fetuses.  You said a woman should be able to have her doctor induce labor.  Since medical tests can determine the chances of survival, inducing labor for a woman to give birth KNOWING that in all liklihood will result in the baby's death is not much different than abortion.

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What pregnant women have been incarcerated? All of these women were charged AFTER their child was born. Viable fetus, stillborn or death after birth. They weren't pregnant when charged.

Further, I haven't mentioned the cost of caring for sick infants at all.

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But there aren't any reported DEATHS associated with it. I know you are super anti-smoking, and since you like to post supporting links, where are the links about coffee and chocolate. Since you always like to talk about how a link someone else posts isn't coming from a reputable source, why should I, or anyone else post a link for you. You want to find out if what I said is true, go look. I went and looked for more information about these women. Found some updated information, like the fact that now Kimbrough admits to smoking meth.

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Then I looked around for articles on these women other than the OP's.  Low and behold, Kimbrough admits to smoking meth 3 days before she went into labor.  Asserting that the baby had Down Syndrome and that caused the premature labor seems to be a bit of a long shot when you get that information.  Kimbrough already has 4 children.  Surely she knew by then that smoking meth was not a good idea while pregnant.

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I also find it interesting that she did this only days after getting the test results that her child might not be "normal."

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During her pregnancy her foetus was diagnosed with possible Down's syndrome and doctors suggested she consider a termination, which Kimbrough declined as she is not in favour of abortion.

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Yes. Precisely. But I'm afraid that doesn't diminish my point in any way. They can't be directly linked, nor can they be exluded. In other words, at this point, a causal connection between cocaine use and fetotoxicity is not known or speculative.

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ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

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Then I looked around for articles on these women other than the OP's.  Low and behold, Kimbrough admits to smoking meth 3 days before she went into labor.  Asserting that the baby had Down Syndrome and that caused the premature labor seems to be a bit of a long shot when you get that information.  Kimbrough already has 4 children.  Surely she knew by then that smoking meth was not a good idea while pregnant.

Damn, I didn't bookmark it, but will try to find it again. I found an article that said Kimbrough pleaded and was sentenced to 10 years.

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I also find it interesting that she did this only days after getting the test results that her child might not be "normal."

Days? The article said that the Downs was detected early enough that physicians suggested she might want to terminate:

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During her pregnancy her foetus was diagnosed with possible Down's syndrome and doctors suggested she consider a termination, which Kimbrough declined as she is not in favour of abortion.

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I was going on the article that talked about the baby having Down's Syndrome. But, seemingly she pleaded guilty....

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So let's look at it from another perspective, ok?  Would you say it is reasonable to believe that most people realize that it is possible for an adult (or teenager in this case) to overdose on cocaine and die?  Cocaine has an amphetimine effect, i.e. rapid heart beat, racing thoughts, inability to sleep or eat.  We can agree that these facts about cocaine are true, right?   Can we further agree that the majority of people recognize that an infant would not take the same dose of a legal medicine (even over the counter advil or tylenol) as someone over 13?  As an example, everyone knows that a shot of liquor will effect a 6', 220 pound male less than his friend who is only 5'4, 135 pounds, right?  We also know that with continued use, people develop a tolerance.

Now translate those facts to Gibbs.  She was pregant and had a cocaine addiction.  Do you think 2 lines of coke would have the same effect on the baby inside her as it did her?  Can you then believe it is possible that the fetus' heart stopped beating because of an overdose of cocaine in-utero?

For me it isn't that much of a stretch.  We have no idea what the toxicology reports of that stillborn baby were.  We don't know whether that infant had cocaine in its system.  As Tazzy mentioned, we don't even know when Gibbs had last seen her OB/GYN, although we are given no information to lead us to believe she wasn't seeing one.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Am I being asked to accept that the fact that the instrument chosen to effect the 'murder' (cocaine use) can't be established to be capable of causing murder is not grounds for reasonable doubt?

Dear oh dear! Judge Judy move over! I'm glad you've chosen a career in the caring professions and not in the law!

Actually whatever her fate Ms Gibbs ought to be happy that neither of us in involved in the legalities of her case. I don't believe I have the makings of a competent lawyer in me. And the wigs and gowns they make you wear here ... hideous!