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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:26:18 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
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quote:

Are we going to try people for first degree murder for having a disease?


Apparently these guys are going to...

http://www.live5news.com/story/14973134/police-baby-died-from-morphine-in-breast-milk


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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:29:32 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I can understand 3rd degree murder in that case, or what they term manslaughter.... reckless disregard for human life... but it does not add up to first degree murder with premeditation as an element of the crime

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(in reply to thishereboi)
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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:33:20 PM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I can understand 3rd degree murder in that case, or what they term manslaughter.... reckless disregard for human life... but it does not add up to first degree murder with premeditation as an element of the crime


I don't understand it either.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:34:02 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

Are we going to try people for first degree murder for having a disease?


Apparently these guys are going to...

http://www.live5news.com/story/14973134/police-baby-died-from-morphine-in-breast-milk


Im going to address the rest in a minute. This isnt the same type of case, boi. The baby was born alive, and killed afterwards. A clear case of murder since the mother should have known better.

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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:35:11 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Manslaughter, accidental accidentally killing another person because you are a dumbass that should know better does not mean you go to prison for 20 to life.

_____________________________

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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:35:23 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Many people consider addiction a disease. Are we going to try people for first degree murder for having a disease? Drunk drivers that kill innocent people are not even treated so harshly as that.


Do we allow for the disease in a criminal offence? Someone gets behind the wheel of a car, an alcoholic and kills someone. Alcoholism is a disease... yet they are still held responsible.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:35:45 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		And this spin begins. It's her body and she can do what she wants.

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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:36:52 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

The Republican philosophy: Protect the unborn. Once a child is born, however, deny it health care, education, a safe and warm place to live and food.

what is this country coming to???


Exactly! It's disgusting.



Or as I always say "Love all the babies 'til their born"


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:38:25 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Many people consider addiction a disease. Are we going to try people for first degree murder for having a disease? Drunk drivers that kill innocent people are not even treated so harshly as that.


Do we allow for the disease in a criminal offence? Someone gets behind the wheel of a car, an alcoholic and kills someone. Alcoholism is a disease... yet they are still held responsible.



I never said that they were not, did you read the link?

It says that they want to lock up one of these women in Mississippi for 20 years because she was a cokehead. And it cannot even be established as to whether or not this impacted the health of her unborn child. In other words they want to give her the penalty of what we give first degree murder, which is 20 to life... and that to me is unjust because I doubt highly that a 15 year old can form that level of criminal intent by what she is ingesting while gestating.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:40:16 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

And this spin begins. It's her body and she can do what she wants.


Spin? It is my body and I can do what I want with it. No spin there. None.


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:42:56 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You can't have it both ways. If a woman has an abortion its not a baby. If a boy friend kills her or the fetus it is a baby ?


Actually no. I don't  think that he should be charged with killing a baby since a fetus is NOT a baby. However murdering a woman should ensure that he spends life in prison anyway so what does it matter?


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:45:02 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

but lost the baby in December 2006 in a stillbirth when she was 36 weeks into the pregnancy.


Well past the age of viability.

JACKSON, Miss. (AP) - The Mississippi Supreme Court is being asked to determine if a teenager can be charged with murder for the death of her child.
The Supreme Court is scheduled to hear arguments Wednesday.
Prosecutors contend Rennie Gibbs, of Columbus, can be tried as adult under Mississippi's depraved heart murder law. Prosecutors allege she overdosed on cocaine causing her child to be stillborn.
According to court records, Gibbs became pregnant when she was 15 and the baby's death occurred in December 2006 when Gibbs was 16.
Various groups, including the National Association of Social Workers, contend Gibbs should not be tried as an adult and should not be charged in the child's death when there was no medical help available for her pregnancy and addiction.

http://wcbi.com/article.php?subaction=showfull&id=1306327924&archive=&start_from=&ucat=2,4&

I would be interested in seeing the autopsy report. If the State Supreme Court is taking up the case, something must be off.

IF what they say is true... then she may indeed be guilty of at least manslaughter. I would have issues with trying her as an adult though.

Shuai survived, but she was 33 weeks' pregnant and her baby, to whom she gave birth a week after the suicide attempt and whom she called Angel, died after four days. In March, Shuai was charged with murder and attempted foeticide and she has been in custody since without the offer of bail.

This one... man... Im sorry but I would have no issue prosecuting her based upon what little I see here. Of course, there may be much more we dont know about. She knew she was pregnant when she ingested the rat poison. You would never convince me she didnt know she was affecting the life of her unborn baby. Again, past the age of viability.

TUSCUMBIA -- A northwest Alabama woman has pleaded guilty to causing the death of her newborn son by using methamphetamine three days before he was born.

Amanda Helaine Borden Kimbrough entered the plea Wednesday. She accepted a plea deal after prosecutors finished presenting their case during her trial in Colbert County, the TimesDaily in Florence reported.

A judge sentenced the 30-year-old Russellville woman to 10 years in prison on a charge of chemical endangerment of a child. She could have been sentenced to life imprisonment without the plea deal.

Timmy Wayne Kimbrough lived for only a few minutes after being born in April 2008. Despite the plea, Kimbrough plans to appeal. Her attorney claims Alabama's child endangerment law doesn't apply to unborn children.


http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/12/northwest_alabama_woman_pleads.html

She plead guilty of the charges. Unless cohersion is a factor, or she was forced to plead that way, Im not too sure what more can be done for her.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:45:09 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You can't have it both ways. If a woman has an abortion its not a baby. If a boy friend kills her or the fetus it is a baby ?


Actually no. I don't  think that he should be charged with killing a baby since a fetus is NOT a baby. However murdering a woman should ensure that he spends life in prison anyway so what does it matter?



That is the entire point of trying people for the crime of committing murder in the miscarriage of a pregnancy... backdoor rights of personhood


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:47:01 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Many people consider addiction a disease. Are we going to try people for first degree murder for having a disease? Drunk drivers that kill innocent people are not even treated so harshly as that.


Do we allow for the disease in a criminal offence? Someone gets behind the wheel of a car, an alcoholic and kills someone. Alcoholism is a disease... yet they are still held responsible.



I never said that they were not, did you read the link?

It says that they want to lock up one of these women in Mississippi for 20 years because she was a cokehead. And it cannot even be established as to whether or not this impacted the health of her unborn child. In other words they want to give her the penalty of what we give first degree murder, which is 20 to life... and that to me is unjust because I doubt highly that a 15 year old can form that level of criminal intent by what she is ingesting while gestating.


Please see my next post.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:47:25 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Men have been charged with murder for punching a pregnant woman and killing the fetus/baby. If that is ok, a woman should be charged with ending the life of a fetus/baby as well.

(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:48:05 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

And this spin begins. It's her body and she can do what she wants.


Try spinning your nonsense elsewhere.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:49:42 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You can't have it both ways. If a woman has an abortion its not a baby. If a boy friend kills her or the fetus it is a baby ?


Actually no. I don't  think that he should be charged with killing a baby since a fetus is NOT a baby. However murdering a woman should ensure that he spends life in prison anyway so what does it matter?



That is the entire point of trying people for the crime of committing murder in the miscarriage of a pregnancy... backdoor rights of personhood



Absolutely Julia. We agree 100 percent.


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:49:53 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Men have been charged with murder for punching a pregnant woman and killing the fetus/baby. If that is ok, a woman should be charged with ending the life of a fetus/baby as well.


Because that is the intent of the one doing the punching. Inflicing severe harm to the mother, or the fetus, directly.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:51:21 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I cannot even understand wanting to lock people up for those time periods for an unborn fetus.

In my mind it makes no sense

Tell me, if a woman wants to have a Cesarean or induce labor at 33 weeks because she doesn't want to be pregnant so she can kill herself, how does that sit with you?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges - 6/25/2011 8:53:34 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Men have been charged with murder for punching a pregnant woman and killing the fetus/baby. If that is ok, a woman should be charged with ending the life of a fetus/baby as well.


Not quite. If you don't get the difference I can't help you. If I am 5 weeks pregnant and don't want to carry that fetus/zygote.embryo to term, then that is MY choice. If I am 7 months pregnant and want  to be a mother with a VIABLE fetus and you punch me in the stomach and I miscarry, then you are a murderer.


_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 40
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