RE: Fibro, school, house of 6

RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (Full Version)

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GreedyTop -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 3:27:45 PM)
giggle

LadyPact -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 3:42:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas To be more clear, she said she thought it might be best to live somewhere else so the dishes could stay in the sink without comment and not because I drank, or ran around or beat her too little or did not help with her children or did not love her or did not help with housework or would not take her to the doctor or with meds but so the dishes in the sink could stay there without comment. It still goes back to trying not to disappoint me and that sometimes it would be easier to live by herself and not have someone depend on her and so it would seem sometimes when she is down. But, I suspect me requiring dishes not to stay in the sink dirty overnight, a pet peave of mine, is not really going to drive her off. We simply made sure it gets done and it does. The highlighted is kind of the point. I really don't know your personal history. I'm guessing that before your girl and her kids moved into your home, it was just you, your daughter, and possibly the boyfriend. If the circumstances were the same (daughter cooked three times a week, etc) there was still a lot on the plate. There were still four days a week that you were managing food, clean up, etc before the new additions to the family got there. Not to mention bathrooms, floors, windows, and all of the other things that need doing. It sounds like the house your girl had prior to moving in with you didn't have the same standards as you do in yours. Even though I don't agree with the motivation or the method behind that reasoning, it's what you've got. The idea is to get everyone on the same level. The problem is that right now, it's harder to make that work because you've got kids out of school and a parent who is in classes. It took roughly six weeks of the chaos (her words, not Mine) to come to these boards (of all places considering the climate) to create this post. That should tell you that it's bad enough. OK. So now there is this week between classes and the family has had the 'lay down the rules' talk. A week isn't a terribly long time to change how the family operates. Consistency is going to have to be the key. Either that, or whatever plan is on the table now is going to go to hell in the next month or so.

Arturas -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 3:48:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I have to wonder how few men know how seriously in trouble their relationships are, until the relationship is over. I agree with this. Men do tend to compartmentalize and minimize ongoing unresolved relationship issues while focusing on material support and shelter issues. We tend to not notice the deterioration of our relationship because we are focused on being a hunter gatherer and will minimize all other issues right up to the time it falls apart and then are left with an empty house and reaching in the darkness for echos of past laughter and love. But it takes two and women have half the fault because we expect full honesty with unresolved issues brought to our attention and women tend to see the issue and their men with rose colored glasses and even blame themselves until they decide it is best to jump ship after finding a ship to jump to quite suddenly. Right or wrong, it's the way it is and we need our ladies to stay focused on the relationship issues, family and home and relationship nurturing and bring the issues to our attention over and over until resolved but in a positive way because we are irritated already if the hunting and gather (work) is not going well that day. Serious. BTW, just because many of you ladies are hunting and gathering also makes no difference in this nature dictated dynamic.

Arturas -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 3:51:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas To be more clear, she said she thought it might be best to live somewhere else so the dishes could stay in the sink without comment and not because I drank, or ran around or beat her too little or did not help with her children or did not love her or did not help with housework or would not take her to the doctor or with meds but so the dishes in the sink could stay there without comment. It still goes back to trying not to disappoint me and that sometimes it would be easier to live by herself and not have someone depend on her and so it would seem sometimes when she is down. But, I suspect me requiring dishes not to stay in the sink dirty overnight, a pet peave of mine, is not really going to drive her off. We simply made sure it gets done and it does. The highlighted is kind of the point. I really don't know your personal history. I'm guessing that before your girl and her kids moved into your home, it was just you, your daughter, and possibly the boyfriend. If the circumstances were the same (daughter cooked three times a week, etc) there was still a lot on the plate. There were still four days a week that you were managing food, clean up, etc before the new additions to the family got there. Not to mention bathrooms, floors, windows, and all of the other things that need doing. It sounds like the house your girl had prior to moving in with you didn't have the same standards as you do in yours. Even though I don't agree with the motivation or the method behind that reasoning, it's what you've got. The idea is to get everyone on the same level. The problem is that right now, it's harder to make that work because you've got kids out of school and a parent who is in classes. It took roughly six weeks of the chaos (her words, not Mine) to come to these boards (of all places considering the climate) to create this post. That should tell you that it's bad enough. OK. So now there is this week between classes and the family has had the 'lay down the rules' talk. A week isn't a terribly long time to change how the family operates. Consistency is going to have to be the key. Either that, or whatever plan is on the table now is going to go to hell in the next month or so. Well said.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 3:53:53 PM)
quote: BTW, just because many of you ladies are hunting and gathering also makes no difference in this nature dictated dynamic. Well that makes perfect sense to me. Seeing as the dynamic in question is entirely imaginary, why would a few facts make any difference to it?

tazzygirl -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 3:54:36 PM)
Heather... quote: Well that makes perfect sense to me. Seeing as the dynamic in question is entirely imaginary, why would a few facts make any difference to it? Hmmm.. what makes you say that?

Arturas -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 4:05:20 PM)
Thank you all. I have enjoyed these during my breaks here working from home today. Tam is here but was ill most of the day. Her daughter did some cleaning and then made lunch with the best grilled cheeze and ham sandwiches one could hope for. Both the kids pretty much were quiet so I could work through the day. They are well behaved children I should say. I think tam is oversensitive to the ruckus children can make in a home with someone like me. I only get envolved when the boy shouts at his sister or at his mother and things seem to get out of control. Tam arose a a few minutes ago to take the girl to her part time job she'll return leaving her there to work from 6 to 9 pm. So, if you wondered why tam has not posted that is one reason. I'm posting too much again and am dropping out for a while. I am hoping tam is well enough to take tonight out to a ball game shortly and share dinner. She might post but she tends to focus on other things now and I am proud of that progress since she was a posting adict at one time. I wish you all well, Arturas

sunshinemiss -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 4:14:01 PM)
People generally do what they do because they get something out of it. Alcoholics don't want to lose their money / families / homes, but they get something out of the drink (calm, quieted voices, loss of guilt, good time, whatever). Tammy gets whatever she gets (and she may not even know what that is). Now, however, she knows the price she has to pay. If being in excruciating pain in order to be with this particular man is a price she's willing to pay (and obviously she currently is), then good on 'em. At some point, most people in these kinds of relationships realize that it is not worth it - who is after all worth it? They realize that they deserve love and support. Until that time, though, they continue in a dysfunctional relationship. Helping before that point is (imo) merely being an enabler (rather like not wanting an alcoholic to drink but giving them beautiful martini glasses as a birthday gift). A woman / man in this kind of relationship won't stop until it is really awful (eta: or someone dies). Or they wise up, but I don't put bets on that. I hope the OP is being smart enough to put some money aside so that when the price becomes too much, she and her kids don't end up in a shelter. best, sunshine

barelynangel -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 4:56:12 PM)
~~FR~~ I am going to disagree slightly with the premise of deal with it or leave. Even within a Gorean concept, IF the home falls into chaos or the slaves fall into chaos, it is not a slave's need to deal or leave. Many people believe a Gorean concept is a take it or leave it concept. It's not - that is a misunderstanding that many people have because of a quote people like to throw around. Its hard work, there are usually a LOT of growing pains and chaos and confusion especially in the beginning, there is a lot of concepts at work in a Gorean M/s relationship. And it's not accept it or leave -- its an open your mouth and communicate concept because while he may have issued his expectations and standards AS THE MASTER, it is up to him to set the environment and atmosphere as well as utilizing his mastery and ability to control and discipline for her to REACH and eventually maintain those expectations and standards. A Man can demand all he wants, however, if he is not setting the slave up to achieve, reach and maintain what he is demanding, then he needs to wake up and realize he is failing as a Master and she will eventually attempt or even gain her self-determination again because her life is so chaotic she has no option but to control what he will not. So i don't agree this is tammy's issue. She simply can't handle the tasks he has demanded of her. So it is HIS issue to either deal with the chaos in his home through his mastery of her and set the environment and atmosphere in a way she CAN achieve what he demands of her or he risks her taking her self-determination and making the decisions for herself. He is the one in control, he is the Master. Therefore, if he wishes to keep the slave == then its his responsibility to keep his slave. IF he allows her the ability to self-determine becuase he has released his mastery of her -- then she may actually decide to utilize such autonomy and leave. As for her having higher expectations than he has of her. That again is a failing of his. If he had her on the path of achieving, reaching and maintaining HIS expectations and standards of her, then the mastery would be firm enough to where if her focus faltered to her own beliefs being what was important with regard to HIS expectations, he would nip that crap ASAP. Many slaves attempt to look beyond where he is keeping her because they think beyond means they are doing it BETTER. In Gorean concept -- this maintaining where he is keeping here is a concept of absolute obedience but also a concept of curiosity is unbecoming a kajira. Absolute obedience means that you don't hear his demands and then say well he wants A, B, and C, but if i do D, E, F instead, i will be ahead of what he wants. --- Umm no. You do A, B, and C and let him worry about D, E, F. Curiosity concept is that a slave doesn't need to worry about what he has in store for her, or what the future holds in terms of what he is planning for her. If he is planning D, E, F then she will know about it when he tells her. Right now, she focuses on A, B, C as he has set out for her. If she feel she is disappointing you Art, then that is YOUR failing -- not hers. YOu have failed to set up the boundries and environment wherein she isn't worried about doing MORE, she is focused pleasantly instead on doing the right now and letting YOU determine what pleases you and what you need to tweak. A good Master will keep her within that A, B, C sphere when she tries to get ahead of him. A poor Master will let her go all willy nilly with no boundries and he will get what he has reeped -- chaos. angel

barelynangel -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 5:00:39 PM)
Heather, i too am curious what you mean by this? quote: Well that makes perfect sense to me. Seeing as the dynamic in question is entirely imaginary, why would a few facts make any difference to it? angel

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 5:03:27 PM)
quote: Hmmm.. what makes you say that? Because there are no dynamics dictated by nature. They can be dictated by one's nature, but not by nature itself. He is stating that housework is the "natural" role of women, and that women who actually pursue and have careers are acting contrary to nature. That is what I was calling imaginary, the idea that certain roles are "naturally" male or female.

tazzygirl -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 5:06:27 PM)
Im gonna let angel field this one...

barelynangel -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 5:12:44 PM)
Umm Tazzy, i have two words for you. Buk Buk (is there a chicken smiley somewhere?)

tazzygirl -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 5:18:58 PM)
LOL... No chicken here. Like I could stop you from commenting. Someone will come along with a smiley chicken before long.

barelynangel -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 5:25:21 PM)
Heather So i am not assuming, can you quote the post as a whole of what you are referring to. The one sentence you quoted isn't enough for me to make the connection of when you said - "He is stating that housework is the "natural" role of women, and that women who actually pursue and have careers are acting contrary to nature. " angel

Egillandpet -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 5:59:35 PM)
i have Pseudotumor Cerebri Fibro and severe Carpal Tunnel.... Daddy finally realized i could not do it all after i went blind while driving with our 2 yr old. He went with me to an appointment and asked what my prognolsis would be. Even though it was poor He still suppoerts my decision to stay in school though i may never get to work as a nurse.... He works 60+ hrs a weeks as a diesel mechanic yet comes home and helps... That is a Master takinng care of WHAT IS HIS!!!! Tell himj to lay down the law or hire a maid..... Slave doesnt mean put all else before your health.. He must think your easily replaced..... That shit doesnt fly here.... Our kids will wind up in a bedroom with nothing but a bed... No privelages.. NOTHING..... Daddy says if a man truly cares he will care for whats his above all else.... Your human... Humans break sometimes.... I have the Fibro pain plus the joy of PTC (please lookk up this disease) which can leave me bllind and half deaf on a daily basis.... Tell him to grow some balls and be a Father....

LaTigresse -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 6:08:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel ~~FR~~ I am going to disagree slightly with the premise of deal with it or leave. Even within a Gorean concept, IF the home falls into chaos or the slaves fall into chaos, it is not a slave's need to deal or leave. Many people believe a Gorean concept is a take it or leave it concept. It's not - that is a misunderstanding that many people have because of a quote people like to throw around. Its hard work, there are usually a LOT of growing pains and chaos and confusion especially in the beginning, there is a lot of concepts at work in a Gorean M/s relationship. And it's not accept it or leave -- its an open your mouth and communicate concept because while he may have issued his expectations and standards AS THE MASTER, it is up to him to set the environment and atmosphere as well as utilizing his mastery and ability to control and discipline for her to REACH and eventually maintain those expectations and standards. A Man can demand all he wants, however, if he is not setting the slave up to achieve, reach and maintain what he is demanding, then he needs to wake up and realize he is failing as a Master and she will eventually attempt or even gain her self-determination again because her life is so chaotic she has no option but to control what he will not. So i don't agree this is tammy's issue. She simply can't handle the tasks he has demanded of her. So it is HIS issue to either deal with the chaos in his home through his mastery of her and set the environment and atmosphere in a way she CAN achieve what he demands of her or he risks her taking her self-determination and making the decisions for herself. He is the one in control, he is the Master. Therefore, if he wishes to keep the slave == then its his responsibility to keep his slave. IF he allows her the ability to self-determine becuase he has released his mastery of her -- then she may actually decide to utilize such autonomy and leave. As for her having higher expectations than he has of her. That again is a failing of his. If he had her on the path of achieving, reaching and maintaining HIS expectations and standards of her, then the mastery would be firm enough to where if her focus faltered to her own beliefs being what was important with regard to HIS expectations, he would nip that crap ASAP. Many slaves attempt to look beyond where he is keeping her because they think beyond means they are doing it BETTER. In Gorean concept -- this maintaining where he is keeping here is a concept of absolute obedience but also a concept of curiosity is unbecoming a kajira. Absolute obedience means that you don't hear his demands and then say well he wants A, B, and C, but if i do D, E, F instead, i will be ahead of what he wants. --- Umm no. You do A, B, and C and let him worry about D, E, F. Curiosity concept is that a slave doesn't need to worry about what he has in store for her, or what the future holds in terms of what he is planning for her. If he is planning D, E, F then she will know about it when he tells her. Right now, she focuses on A, B, C as he has set out for her. If she feel she is disappointing you Art, then that is YOUR failing -- not hers. YOu have failed to set up the boundries and environment wherein she isn't worried about doing MORE, she is focused pleasantly instead on doing the right now and letting YOU determine what pleases you and what you need to tweak. A good Master will keep her within that A, B, C sphere when she tries to get ahead of him. A poor Master will let her go all willy nilly with no boundries and he will get what he has reeped -- chaos. angel I am glad you returned and clarified what I was trying to do and failed.

LaTigresse -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 6:12:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: Hmmm.. what makes you say that? Because there are no dynamics dictated by nature. They can be dictated by one's nature, but not by nature itself. He is stating that housework is the "natural" role of women, and that women who actually pursue and have careers are acting contrary to nature. That is what I was calling imaginary, the idea that certain roles are "naturally" male or female. That is where Arties 'I wanna be a gorean' comes into play. The fact that I went to work and brought home some bacon while a man stayed home and cleaned house and finished mowing the yard.......must mean I am not a weal and twue woman. Not according to his silly, natural order, bullshit.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 6:17:06 PM)
Oh dear, I am..a business owner! How unnatural! [:D] Your post was excellent, Barelynangel, and clarified a Gorean point I didn't realize.

sirsholly -> RE: Fibro, school, house of 6 (7/5/2011 6:35:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Someone will come along with a smiley chicken before long. [image]http://www.millan.net/minimations/toolminis/xanimal_kyckling1.gif[/image]

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