Predators

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LadyPact -> Predators (6/27/2011 11:11:43 PM)
For those who don't know, I attended Northern Exposure this past weekend. As usual, any time that I go to an educational event, there are always some ideas that come up that I'd like to discuss in further detail. This particular thought came up during a class given by Obsidian and Obsidian's namaste. They are the current International Master/slave titleholders. One mention that was made during the class is how quickly some folks can be labeled predators. In saying this, I don't want folks to get confused with My intent. There definitely are predators within the community, but I'd like to focus on how this term can, at times, be thrown around too quickly. In this, during the discussion, a very interesting point was made. We go to munches, etc to meet and talk with other kinky people. Yet, there are times that if someone talks about meeting people with similar kinks, they somehow become predators. OK. Well, if you're going to try to meet kinky people who are into the same things you are into, if you can't do that at the munch, just how else are you supposed to do it? This is one of those areas where I think males might have a tougher time than females. To the best of My knowledge, I've never been called a predator, creepy, or any other thing that might be said if I used the same approach and I happened to be male. Some other points that were brought up were people's experiences that it seems that folks were quicker to call someone a predator depending on other areas. A few that were mentioned were 1) physical appearance, 2) if they weren't quite as good in areas such as social grace, and 3) lack of experience. I thought I'd throw this one out there to hear how people feel about this or if they would like to share some personal stories.

poise -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 5:55:48 AM)
I relate to group events like conventions. Those attending are potential consumers. I can understand the thought behind the label, but it seems a bit extreme for me. Like a stalker with bad intent. I'm curious to know if those that are affixing the label are single? As you mentioned, many attend community events in hopes of finding not just a group of like minded individuals, but that very special one. They are on the hunt if you will. Perhaps the single people are approached differently, and have often felt like prey? I think those that are inexperienced may feel a bit awkward attending for the first few times, which may add to their perceived lack of social grace. I'm wondering if this is the reason they stick out to others and are hence labelled.

DarkSteven -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 6:06:25 AM)
What's the definition of a predator? Obviously, a man who lies to girls and tries to force them nonconsensually is. But.... Does it apply to HNGs that try to get women to cam? Does it apply to first time guys who walk into a munch and ask where the hot bitches are?

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 6:11:58 AM)
i wouldn't say someone was a predator just because he was awkward or dressed funny. but i think the tendency to do that comes out of the human tendency for hyperbole. i mean, look around the boards on any given day, and if someone says "i dont believe in X" someone else comes back with "you're an X-hating maniac!" likewise, i think people are prone to do that in real life, too. to me, predators are those who manipulate and lie for a specific goal of some kind, a goal that manifests at the detriment of whoever they're acting upon. and by detriment i don't just mean "he's bugging me, ew, so creepy!" i mean hurting people, either physically or emotionally. they don't wear any specific kind of clothes, they don't look any specific way. and it's usually something that sneaks out pretty stealthily, rather than sitting like a flashing light on their heads.

DomImus -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 6:18:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven What's the definition of a predator? Well, that's the rub. You'll never come up with a consensus opinion/definition for the term - much like most any other term in all of this. Invariably it ends up simply being a label someone attached to somebody else that they simply did not like. And much like when Peter cried "wolf" when a real wolf happens along nobody will listen because the term has been run into the ground and no longer has any real meaning. That's why I pay no attention to the terms or to the people who belabor them.

leadership527 -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 6:46:07 AM)
I wouldn't worry about it too much LP. The exact same thing happens in vanilla circles although the word used might not exactly be "predator". Yes, humans in small cliques are prone to really, really bad behavior. I don't think the BDSM community's focus on "helpless subs and all the roving gangs of street doms out to get them" helps anything. It turns all the subs into victims making it that much easier to drag out the "predator" statement. Without that, some dom had bad chemistry with a sub might well just be "that creepy guy" but add in the victim mindset and he's a predator.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 7:01:55 AM)
I think at least in the Philly scene it seems that only those who are actually "predators" are labeled as such and only after they repeat the behavior several times over. We actually had to ban two members from tng when i first started because they had a habit of finding girls who just were starting and within the age limit to go to tng functions. They was banned and a new rule had to be made that if you bring someone your responsible for them. Meaning if the person you bring serves drinks to a minor, or inappropriately touches someone else you get kicked out. Also several of the parties i attend are similar in that regard and I prefer it. It makes people really get to know and look into other people before giving their word on that person We also have several people in the community who are labeled like that because they are well known for picking up young or newer naive girls, using them until they are broken and moving on to the next... I know If i see a pattern and attend a munch that they are at being a left behind of one of the above, I warn the girl of his past and point out the other 18 women in the room hes done it to. And It happens with several of the local females as well so its not just attached to the males.

LadyPact -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 7:02:42 AM)
Good feedback so far. Some of what is coming up is why I wanted to explore the idea a bit. I may even be leaning a bit about the thought process behind it much in the same way as I see the term "abuse". Not one that should be used unless it really applies. I'm sorry to say that I don't have answers to your questions, poise. This was based on a quick little exchange in the middle of a class, so I didn't have the opportunity to explore it much. Why I thought it was interesting is because it was being based on impressions, rather than facts. Not something that was based on harm committed or a pattern established. It came across to Me that, in the case of the person I had this quick mention with, it was something that she was observing as it related to her partner. To the best of My knowledge, Steven, we were looking at real life only, so no cam requests. I couldn't say if it was on the rude side or an extreme. The gentleman didn't come across that way to Me, so I'm not thinking that was it. Bugging is another interesting term, Lilly. Since people interpret that in different ways, too, what's acceptable to one is a bad vibe to another. Imus, you're zoning in on it. Something about one person that another doesn't like. Gender was an easy one, so I'm interested in looking at other factors. Two male Doms with the same approach. Are people quicker to decide one is 'creepy' but not the other due to physical appearance, age, or experience level?

DecadentDesire -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 7:19:40 AM)
"Predator" is the preferred method for making a dominant a social outcast in the "scene". I would say it's primarily the result of herd-like social dynamics at work and less about actually protecting people. I've been on the receiving end on this label before by dominants who were threatened by me. It's one of the many reasons the idea of going to a munch leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes my skin crawl. When I was involved, I found the social atmosphere to be more akin to high school then an actual adult group. I've simply never seen anything like it in other social groups I have been a part of.

leadership527 -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 8:01:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire It's one of the many reasons the idea of going to a munch leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes my skin crawl. When I was involved, I found the social atmosphere to be more akin to high school then an actual adult group. I've simply never seen anything like it in other social groups I have been a part of. I'd caution against over-generalizing there. The [few] munches i've been to and the [way less few] MAST meeting were all very adult, very non-confrontational very non-high-school-ey.

DecadentDesire -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 8:05:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire It's one of the many reasons the idea of going to a munch leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes my skin crawl. When I was involved, I found the social atmosphere to be more akin to high school then an actual adult group. I've simply never seen anything like it in other social groups I have been a part of. I'd caution against over-generalizing there. The [few] munches i've been to and the [way less few] MAST meeting were all very adult, very non-confrontational very non-high-school-ey. Actually, MAST was one of the groups I was really impressed with and I'm glad you brought them up. I would hate for them to fall within my generalization. My experiences with them in the past led me to conclude they were more geared towards people in relationships, then single people. When my single status changes, I would be interested in getting involved with them again.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 8:11:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire "Predator" is the preferred method for making a dominant a social outcast in the "scene". I would say it's primarily the result of herd-like social dynamics at work and less about actually protecting people. This. I've been on the receiving end of this too, by someone I've never even met but managed to offend on a message board. [8\|] Yet one more reason I want nothing to do with my local "community" and avoid it like the plague.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 8:11:54 AM)
a predator, to me, is just that. a person who treats his/her target the same way a fucking tiger does a water buffalo. some thing to be taken and consumed purely for the benefit of the predator. the well being, or even survival, of the target is of no fucking consequence to the predator. i base my judgments purely on what i know about the fucker in question. past actions and my fucking impressions as well. i don't mean some guy who nails all the new sluts, he's just a fucking player, it requires a certain mindset for me to consider a person a predator, one of personal fucking entitlement without any concern of the cost of one's fulfillment on others. i don't pay too fucking much attention to what others have to say about a person, its mostly all in my fucking head. unfair maybe, but it kept me alive and more or less whole in an environment where the fucking predators abound. so far i have never been proven wrong, but to be honest i don't generally have a fucking thing to do with a person once i get this vibe from them. lambs laying with lions and all that shit.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 8:20:23 AM)
Well, in lovely Michigan, the various predators are... a serial date rapist, a thief (contractor who takes money for work that doesnt get performed, he has left MI), a "homewrecker" whose prey is young mothers in shaky relationships--he sweeps in and makes it all better, serial abusers (physical and mental), and these and assorted others are backed up by the victim blamers! These charmers come in ALL GENDERS AND ORIENTATIONS. Not picking on the male tops here. You may substitute any number of places for "Michigan". I think that "predator" and "stalker" are words that get tossed about far too easily. A person can be a complete douche without being a predator. A person can be an incompetent player without being "dangerous". A person can be an HNG or HRTG without actually being more than a pest. As in so many things, INTENT is the key. Does the person seek out the weak, and manipulate them on purpose? When confronted with the behavior, does the person blow off the claims? A person who is teachable, or motivated to change in a positive way is rarely a predator.

sexyred1 -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 8:23:43 AM)
I think predator is too extreme of a term to use unless one has proof that someone is actually victimizing someone else. And of course, that is all subjective. One woman's obsessive predator is another woman's dreamboat.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 8:46:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 I think predator is too extreme of a term to use unless one has proof that someone is actually victimizing someone else. And of course, that is all subjective. One woman's obsessive predator is another woman's dreamboat. And that is where the slippery slope comes in. We all know at least one woman who hides her bruises and says Oh he LOVVVVVVES me!

BonesFromAsh -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 8:48:23 AM)
The two people I've known that the label "predator" would actually fit to a T had nothing whatsoever to do with bdsm or any local kink community. Of course, I'm still in the local kink wading pool. I'm sure in time I'll cross paths with a shark or two....but isn't just reality and not simply kink related?

sexyred1 -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 8:54:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 I think predator is too extreme of a term to use unless one has proof that someone is actually victimizing someone else. And of course, that is all subjective. One woman's obsessive predator is another woman's dreamboat. And that is where the slippery slope comes in. We all know at least one woman who hides her bruises and says Oh he LOVVVVVVES me! Exactly. As for predators, I have come across far more in vanilla life than in kink. Predators come in all flavors; look at Bernie Madoff, etc.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 9:08:47 AM)
FR Questions like this are why I always try to describe someone's behaviour rather than shoving a label on them. So I wouldn't call person A a predator, I'd just say that whenever I've seen him he's been headed straight for the newest, youngest girl in the room. Or that person B had pressured Person C into playing at party Y and then abandoned them without aftercare. Or that person D is constantly surrounded by relationship drama that doesn't paint a good picture of their conduct. 'Predator' is a subjective label. Actions and behaviours are more concrete.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Predators (6/28/2011 9:09:50 AM)
I agree that predatory behavior has nothing to do with kink, it's just that kink makes it simpler to find prey.

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