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Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 8:25:42 PM

juliaoceania

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I was contemplating something, and that is how valuable human life is and how we decide which human life is valuable and which isn't...

I wanted to ask a question, do you think that it matters who is murdered when assessing a sentence for a murderer? In other words, do age, gender, or socioeconomic class of a murder victim somehow mean more prison time for the person who committed the crime... Forget the kind of murder it is, just looking at the victim of the crime alone, do you think there are some people that matter more than others?

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 8:39:18 PM

SternSkipper

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quote:

Forget the kind of murder it is, just looking at the victim of the crime alone, do you think there are some people that matter more than others?

I think there are people more people feel a connection to, be it because of fame or whatever. But I also think that intrinsically, the minute someone else takes away your ability to live or decides the moment it ends for you, all people are kind of the same at that moment.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 8:40:45 PM

kdsub

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I think it all depends on the circumstances of the murder…Imagine for instance a mother finds out her husband is molesting their child and plans a murder. Or A father finds out his daughter has been beaten by her husband and commits premeditated murder.

But that said I believe all murders with similar circumstances should receive a similar punishment.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/30/2011 8:41:45 PM >

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 8:42:07 PM

juliaoceania

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What I mean, I suppose, is that do you feel the penalty for premeditating the murder of a child should get you more prison time than murdering a prostitute.... lets say the facts of the crime are exactly the same, same sort of premeditation, same murder weapon, same exact crime... just one is a kid, the other a whore.... is the kid more valuable to the system? Should they be?

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 8:46:36 PM

WyldHrt

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Should they be? No. Unfortunately, reality is often far from the way things should be.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 8:46:49 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

do you think that it matters who is murdered... do age, gender, or socioeconomic class of a murder victim somehow mean more prison time

No.

K.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 8:54:07 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Should they be? No. Unfortunately, reality is often far from the way things should be.

Yeah, I noticed that on another thread that is going on right now. I think sometimes people think of babies and they forget everything else because it is abhorrent to hurt someone so helpless. It is hard to sometimes see beyond that to other things, like elements of a crime, etc etc etc.

We almost never hear anyone argue for prostitutes.... many of them being children, also.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 8:57:29 PM

Sanity

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I think maybe it should, which is why God invented victim pact statements.

Case in point, a brutal knuckle dragger in the Boise area methodically tortured and then killed his eight year-old stepson over some length of time, as the rest of the family seemingly looked on in approval.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2011/06/30/1710425/closing-arguments-begin-this-afternoon.html

Had it been an adult who he tortured and killed I wouldnt be so sick over it, but because of who his victim was, it was worse than had it been certain other victims.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 9:05:13 PM

hlen5

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Whether it's a scientist with a cure for cancer or some skid row bum that got rolled and died of his injuries, a life is a life.

Homicide of the helpless should garner the murderer a wrathful execution (I know it's a contradiction since I don't believe in capital punishment).

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 9:13:27 PM

DarkSteven

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Of course some people are worth more than others. Salaries and net worth are two ways of gauging worth monetarily.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 9:30:35 PM

TheHeretic

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I do think the nature of the victim matters. There is something especially heinous in the murder of a helpless innocent. Yes. The life of the toddler playing on the front porch is worth more than the life of the useless gangbanger the other useless gangbangers missed, when they killed the kid.

For sentencing, I'm a firm believer in a well-executed death penalty (no pun intended) for murderers, period.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 9:31:25 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Of course some people are worth more than others. Salaries and net worth are two ways of gauging worth monetarily.

So if a guy murders a mother of 5 and a CEO, the sentence for the CEO should be more?

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 9:33:14 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Should they be? No. Unfortunately, reality is often far from the way things should be.

Yeah, I noticed that on another thread that is going on right now. I think sometimes people think of babies and they forget everything else because it is abhorrent to hurt someone so helpless. It is hard to sometimes see beyond that to other things, like elements of a crime, etc etc etc.

We almost never hear anyone argue for prostitutes.... many of them being children, also.

What you are talking about are called "enhancements." They allow for harsher sentences when a crime has certain elements to it. They are not a bad thing, but they are often applied to broadly with prosecutors searching for ways to enchance the crime committed.

Sanity actually posted a good example. Regardless of it being a child, that particular charge is enhanced due to the torture aspect. I don't agree with "depraved heart," but I do agree with "depraved indifference," which are not the same thing as I'm sure you are realizing by now.

"Depraved indifference" implies a complete and utter disregard for human life. In the case Sanity mentioned, there would be additional charges because it was a child. Not because a child is more valuable that a prostitute, but because an eight year old kid really can't defend themselves against an adult. More so than an adult.

There seem to be enhancements for just about anything these days. Was a crime racially motivated? Does that mean minorities are more "valued" than whites? Was the victim gay? Are gays worth more than straights? Enhancements seem to have been developed when a crime is committed purely out of hatred or against those considered defenseless, like children and old people.

Again the problem has arisen from the fact that prosecutors want to inflict harsher sentences and the people want to punish certain crimes more. It isn't that the life of a prostitute is less valuable than that of a ten year old. It is that the prostitute doesn't typically have a lot of people crying in outrage over her demise.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 9:35:23 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I think maybe it should, which is why God invented victim pact statements.

Case in point, a brutal knuckle dragger in the Boise area methodically tortured and then killed his eight year-old stepson over some length of time, as the rest of the family seemingly looked on in approval.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2011/06/30/1710425/closing-arguments-begin-this-afternoon.html

Had it been an adult who he tortured and killed I wouldnt be so sick over it, but because of who his victim was, it was worse than had it been certain other victims.

So, we should now sentence people based upon how emotionally upsetting a crime is? We should let our emotional states dictate justice? I thought we had a court system to give justice a less emotional edge, and Lady Justice is supposed to be blind. In other words, justice is supposed to be not meted out based upon our human prejudices.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 9:35:36 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Of course some people are worth more than others. Salaries and net worth are two ways of gauging worth monetarily.

So if a guy murders a mother of 5 and a CEO, the sentence for the CEO should be more?

Actually the reverse would be true. Those 5 children will only ever have one mother. A company can always find a new CEO.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 11:21:44 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

do you think there are some people that matter more than others?

In principle ......No. I'd like to think that all lives are of equal value.

In reality ...... I must confess that the senseless murder of a child, especially by an adult, enrages me. I don't believe in the death penalty but there are some things I hear about that put me in such a state that I would happily kill the monster(s) responsible myself. I can't say I like this part of me much but it's there. I can say I'll never act on it.

It's a fact that some deaths carry a lot more import than others. Murders of social outcasts and marginalised people attract different responses and different penalties to those of socially approved types, the rich and powerful, those whose lifestyles are more conventional. Much as it saddens me to say it, I don't see this changing much

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 11:30:49 PM

lovmuffin

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What more could you add to what LafayetteLady posted except I will mention cops. I've seemed to notice there are some serious enhancements for killing them.

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 6/30/2011 11:33:12 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

do you think there are some people that matter more than others?

In principle ......No. I'd like to think that all lives are of equal value.

In reality ...... I must confess that the senseless murder of a child, especially by an adult, enrages me. I don't believe in the death penalty but there are some things I hear about that put me in such a state that I would happily kill the monster(s) responsible myself. I can't say I like this part of me much but it's there. I can say I'll never act on it.

It's a fact that some deaths carry a lot more import than others. Murders of social outcasts and marginalised people attract different responses and different penalties to those of socially approved types, the rich and powerful, those whose lifestyles are more conventional. Much as it saddens me to say it, I don't see this changing much

I think that most of us have the emotional reaction to the death of a child... I agree that people are prone towards emotional reactions.

I also know that there are sentencing guidelines where the depravity of the crime gets weighed...

What I suppose I am thinking about is the crime itself, what crime people are charged with in the first place. I do not think that it matters who the victim is if the elements of the crime support or do not support a certain charge. Increasingly we see prosecutors going for stiffer charges even though the elements of the crime do not support those charges... especially when the victim is sympathetic. I do not like the trend of making new categories of crimes to fit a small portion of actions, for example.... hate crimes.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/30/2011 11:34:16 PM >

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 7/1/2011 12:38:58 AM

tweakabelle

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This is a complex area. I'm not sure there are any easy answers .....

For instance most of us are outraged by what we'd call senseless killings - killings of innocent children, hate crimes and the like. So are they a category apart from 'non-senseless' ( I daren't use 'sensible ' here) killings? The motivation does count.

Is the violence displayed by say a contract killer - the switch on, switch off, "I'll do it if the $ are right" variety - far more chilling? I find that kind of cold emotionless detachment from human life chills me to the bone. But it rarely enrages me the way the sadistic killing of an infant or an utterly pointless random queer-hate murder would.

Ultimately, I suppose it's a question of: are we trying to regulate behaviour or identity here? Are we going to punish people for their acts or for their disposition to re-offend, the danger they represent to society, etc?

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RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? - 7/1/2011 4:59:16 AM

SilverMark

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The simple answer is NO, the law is the law and should be applied equally. The problems exist when a woman who is beaten by her husband for 20 years, finally takes the matters into her own hands and shoots the bastard, someone kills a child, an elderly person etc. The black and white of the issue isn't quite so black and white.

I think circumstances influences the judgments rendered.

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