RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 12:14:30 PM)


Everything I've been able to find so far indicates that warming oceans are not the issue. The issue is changes in ocean currents, which even without the oceans being any warmer would cause increased melting. In Antarctia, for example:

“The main reason the glaciers are thinning in this region, we think, is the presence of warm waters,” he said. “Warm waters did not get there because the ocean warmed up, but because of subtle changes in ocean circulation. Ocean circulation is key. This study reinforces this concept.” ~The Earth Institute, Columbia University

The biggest concern is that this may be signalling the onset of a period of global cooling.

The thawing of sea ice covering the Arctic could disturb or even halt large currents in the Atlantic Ocean. Without the vast heat that these ocean currents deliver... Europe's average temperature would likely drop 5 to 10°C (9 to 18°F), and parts of eastern North America would be chilled somewhat less. Such a dip in temperature would be similar to global average temperatures toward the end of the last ice age roughly 20,000 years ago. ~NASA Science News

Nor is it at all clear that there is an anthropogenic cause behind these changes. In fact, such cyclic changes are the norm.

[image]http://www.wunderground.com/education/GISPIItemp.gif[/image]

The historical records shows us that abrupt climate change is not only possible--it is the normal state of affairs. The present warm, stable climate is a rare anomaly. ~Weather Underground

Sudden warmings and coolings of 15°F (8°C) or more are typical for the past 100,000 years. The most unusual feature in the record is the past ~11,000 years of stable climate.

K.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 12:21:06 PM)

You hit it pretty good on the result of the potential collapse of the North Atlantic Gyre,  Kirata.  The only thing you slightly missed is that it wouldn't be a global cooling event.  The average temp of the planet could still rise as Northern Europe went all Deep Freeze on us.

This potential side effect has been documented for well over a decade.  That might be why European countries were much more amenable to the Kyoto meetings.  They have a HELL of a lot more to lose than we do in a worst case scenario.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 12:24:17 PM)

The biggest danger to the global climate is the hot air that flows from the AGW sect.



Kirata -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 12:34:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You hit it pretty good on the result of the potential collapse of the North Atlantic Gyre, Kirata. The only thing you slightly missed is that it wouldn't be a global cooling event. The average temp of the planet could still rise as Northern Europe went all Deep Freeze on us.

Well, the information I've found does appear to indicate that tropical regions would remain fairly comfortably habitable (we're not talking "Snowball Earth"), but according to NASA a dip into an Ice Age would indeed result in mean lower global average temperatures.

Not worth arguing in the context of the current thread, but I'd be interested to know your source for future reference.

K.



Real0ne -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 12:42:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainfreeze

Science has almost become a religion. We need to be wary of scientists anymore just as we would faith healers. The middle class has become the equivalent of honey bees. Work your ass off storing honey for your future and somebody comes along wearing a hazmat suit and blowing smoke in your hive and before you know it your honey and all the work that went into it is gone.

Let me get this straight...

Scientists are now stealing your stuff?


yeh because they get grants from those who do steal our stuff






brainfreeze -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 12:47:10 PM)

Yes, when things cool off again... and statistically they will have to do that... there will be plenty of ice. Not that polar ice is actually going away. It always shifts... melts and freezes. Just normal Earth cycles that have absolutely nothing to do with derivative carbon trading... the motivation behind that is a whole other topic for another thread.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 12:48:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You hit it pretty good on the result of the potential collapse of the North Atlantic Gyre, Kirata. The only thing you slightly missed is that it wouldn't be a global cooling event. The average temp of the planet could still rise as Northern Europe went all Deep Freeze on us.

Well, the information I've found does appear to indicate that tropical regions would remain fairly comfortably habitable (we're not talking "Snowball Earth"), but according to NASA a dip into an Ice Age would indeed result in mean lower global average temperatures.

Not worth arguing in the context of the current thread, but I'd be interested to know your source for future reference.

K.



My old textbooks.  The collapse of a gyre eliminates a lot of heat transfer from equatorial regions to temperate and subarctic.  If you look at a globe and see the latitude of most of the inhabited areas of Europe and then compare it to similar latitudes of N America, you can see what the Gulf Stream does.  It makes the area inhabitable.  (Not to imply to our Canadian friends that their lovely country is less than a fucking icebo...... errrrrrr excuse Me a temperate utopia).  Yeah that's it.  A temperate Utopia.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 2:13:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainfreeze
... the motivation behind that is a whole other topic for another thread.


... and we have had many of those, already ... [:D]

Firm



CreepyStalker -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 3:01:24 PM)

No matter how warm my thoughts are, I've never been able to accelerate the melting of ice with them, so it's entirely possible that oceans could be more effective at it.



Real0ne -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 3:24:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Another fake science report concerning climate change? I am sure the conservatives on this board would have us believe that.

I have learned to never trust popular media reports about scientific studies and papers, as they are more interested in dumbing it down, and playing up the certainties (and playing to their own biases), rather than the uncertainties of the actual science.

But, even without reading the report, just the AP report you quoted, I found these words telling:

... potentially raising sea levels ...

... could mean polar ice melting faster ...
Firm




well then you are part way there.

I have learned never to trust scientific studies period.

Not after how I have seen MIT, Princeton et al cook the books.






Termyn8or -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 4:42:59 PM)

"Another fake science report concerning climate change?"

It was their turn. It's like watching the WWF or a movie like with fighting in it. You pay to see it.

And nobody seems to notice that there is a natural warming trend now due to celestial movements. I have stated that, the reasons therefore and included detail.

But that has nothing to do with it, it must be those evil polluters. People running those fucking lawnmowers all the time. How do we stop this ? I know, raise prices. Raise taxes. Create new ones to find ANY motherfucker in this country who can still make a goddamn dollar doing something other than selling Chinese TV sets, lead painted kids toys or junk bonds packaged as solid investments.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 4:46:57 PM)

"Because all the independent groups who investigated the claims found no fraud. "

So if they don't find it, it doesn't exist. OK.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 4:53:12 PM)

"Everything I've been able to find so far indicates that warming oceans are not the issue. The issue is changes in ocean currents, which even without the oceans being any warmer would cause increased melting. In Antarctia, for example:

“The main reason the glaciers are thinning in this region, we think, is the presence of warm waters,” he said. “Warm waters did not get there because the ocean warmed up, but because of subtle changes in ocean circulation. Ocean circulation is key. This study reinforces this concept.” ~The Earth Institute, Columbia University
"

This supports what I posted quite a while ago. Due to the difference in the Earth year and the sidereal year, the apehelion and perihelion cycle in phase, from when the sun is closest in January to the point where it is closest in June. I also believe I said that the actual amount of energy collected from the sun was not the major issue, but that the change in the pattern would affect currents in the atmosphere as well as the oceans.

Sun shines, people forget.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 4:57:24 PM)

"The biggest danger to the global climate is the hot air that flows from the AGW sect. "

Every once in a while..........

I got more to say, but it's to everyone so just suffice it to say that on this, we agree. They spent more money on studying a problem that may or may not be, that we may or may not be able to correct and never even started to prove that it is the fault of Man.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 5:00:46 PM)

"but according to NASA a dip into an Ice Age would indeed result in mean lower global average temperatures."
 
Not picking on you, but that statement is about as profound as saying that warm water melts ice. Which you did quote. Like I said, they are not even really studying the right thing here.
 
And when they run out of facts, they need entries from gradeschool textbooks.
 
T^T



hardcybermaster -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 5:04:49 PM)

I just don't understand how people can think that the amount of crap we are pumping into the air and the sea will not have an effect on our enviroment.
No I am not a scientist
No I don't have all the facts and figures running through a super computer but it must be doing something



Termyn8or -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 5:08:50 PM)

"Yes, when things cool off again... and statistically they will have to do that... there will be plenty of ice. Not that polar ice is actually going away. It always shifts... melts and freezes. "

I forgot how long the cycle is, but we are on a possible warming trend now. Right now the Earth is closest to the sun in January. Eventually it will be closest to the equator in January. Something like that.

" Just normal Earth cycles that have absolutely nothing to do with derivative carbon trading... the motivation behind that is a whole other topic for another thread."

I don't know about that. With the economy in this state, I think allocation of resources is quite important. I will post more at the bottom. But if you think about it, if you he 1,000 scientists making say a hundred grand a year or so, each paid by opposing factions with money that came from us, along with their staffs, equipment and facilities it adds up.

T^T



SternSkipper -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 5:23:25 PM)

quote:

Ya think that could be because the top global warming fanatics, er, "scientists", were caught committing fraud?


Doubtful. but all those more intelligent that you are liars, so what's it matter? Just bend over and take it.




SternSkipper -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 5:30:21 PM)

quote:

The biggest danger to the global climate is the hot air that flows from the AGW sect.


You're welcome to come to gloucester and I'll be happy to show you the 200 year old cottages that were on dry ground year around 15 years ago when I moved here.... They are now paying the big bucks to the neighborhood up on blocks now.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Warming ocean could melt ice faster than thought (7/4/2011 5:34:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

The biggest danger to the global climate is the hot air that flows from the AGW sect.


You're welcome to come to gloucester and I'll be happy to show you the 200 year old cottages that were on dry ground year around 15 years ago when I moved here.... They are now paying the big bucks to the neighborhood up on blocks now.




Which of course doesnt say fuck all about WHY. You do know what the "A" stands for, right? Besides the first letter of the song you sing when you try and figure out how to spell something?



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