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RE: question of punishment - 7/9/2011 1:49:55 PM   
KutenHyperkitty


Posts: 1
Joined: 7/14/2010
Status: offline 		well depends on what you didn't do, you can be awsome all week and sliip up and do something your Master has told you not too. Or maybe he is strict and didn't let you know that before he took you as his own, if you really wana stay out of trouble, play dumb and beg for forgiveness that's what I do all the time....which is not a good way to go because soon your Master will notice this if you do it all the time.

(in reply to Mastersbunny93)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 1:37:14 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Edited because I posted before I saw your second comment to me.

Yeah, I meant that he was being rude to her friend. Just because she should've obeyed him doesn't mean he should've told her to in the first place.

Of course, I'm assuming here she's being totally truthful about the whole situation, that he ordered her to hang up on her friend just because he didn't get on with this person. But like you said, there could be a whole other side to it. Who knows.

< Message edited by graceadieu -- 7/10/2011 2:02:41 PM >

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 2:17:20 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KutenHyperkitty

well depends on what you didn't do, you can be awsome all week and sliip up and do something your Master has told you not too. Or maybe he is strict and didn't let you know that before he took you as his own, if you really wana stay out of trouble, play dumb and beg for forgiveness that's what I do all the time....which is not a good way to go because soon your Master will notice this if you do it all the time.


They're 19. They've been together 3 years. She recently convinced him to try D/s. He has no clue what he's doing and neither does she. To add to the situation she doesn't communicate clearly.

Your advice is bad advice. It's lying to your Dominant. But, beyond that it's not even relevant to this situation.


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to KutenHyperkitty)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 3:22:10 PM   
PrincessDonna1


Posts: 21
Joined: 5/2/2010
Status: offline 		Wow not once have I heard anyone say why are you talking to this person if you know your master doesnt like them? Sounds to me like you may be challenging him

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 4:39:47 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline 		 
Just smear some of this stuff on your bottom... the smell it'll leave on his hand will ensure he never spanks you again!!!

Liquid Ass ---> http://www.amazon.com/liquid-ass-Liquid/dp/B000OCEWGW

lol



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RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 4:50:09 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna1

Wow not once have I heard anyone say why are you talking to this person if you know your master doesnt like them? Sounds to me like you may be challenging him


No, it sounds like she has someone in her life that her D doesn't like. He doesn't have to like everyone that she likes. Just like she doesn't have to like everyone in his life either. Unless, there's a better reason, like toxicity.

But part two here is: Just because this is D/s doesn't mean that you get to be rude. What he did was rude and he expected her to be rude because he said so.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to PrincessDonna1)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 4:53:38 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna1
Wow not once have I heard anyone say why are you talking to this person if you know your master doesnt like them? Sounds to me like you may be challenging him


Okay Donna, I have a question. You meet some guy who becomes your dominant, but he doesn't like one of your kids. You going to kick the kid out because of a guy you've known six months? Obviously you're challenging him by not doing so. Or not?

The op's probably known this friend for over a decade, but her master for a lot less. The friendship has stood the test of time, this relationship has not.


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 5:44:17 PM   
hangemhigh1953


Posts: 245
Joined: 7/8/2011
Status: offline 		Speaking from a strictly behavioral psychological point of view, punishment doesn't work, behavior is shaped solely through positive reinforcement (application of pleasure) or negative reinforcement (removal of pain). But then again I am very new to everything so I don't know how that fits into this lifestyle, it appears to me that training is rarely done solely for the end result, the punishment seems to often be kind of a ritual as well.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 5:54:53 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna1

Wow not once have I heard anyone say why are you talking to this person if you know your master doesnt like them? Sounds to me like you may be challenging him


No, it sounds like she has someone in her life that her D doesn't like. He doesn't have to like everyone that she likes. Just like she doesn't have to like everyone in his life either. Unless, there's a better reason, like toxicity.

But part two here is: Just because this is D/s doesn't mean that you get to be rude. What he did was rude and he expected her to be rude because he said so.






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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 5:57:33 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hangemhigh1953

Speaking from a strictly behavioral psychological point of view, punishment doesn't work, behavior is shaped solely through positive reinforcement (application of pleasure) or negative reinforcement (removal of pain).



Punishment is "negative reinforcement"... the AVOIDANCE of pain.  Works for some, not for all.



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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 7:20:03 PM   
hangemhigh1953


Posts: 245
Joined: 7/8/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA



Punishment is "negative reinforcement"... the AVOIDANCE of pain.  Works for some, not for all.



That's a common misconception. Punishment is the application of pain (be it physical, mental, emotional, etc), while negative reinforcement rewards the trainee by removing pain (like taking off a chastity device, unshackling, etc). Reinforcement acts as a reward, while punishment is, well, punishment, and only works to stop a behavior from happening, but won't permanently change it or shape a new behavior.

Sorry, I don't mean to get all technical, but since I discovered this lifestyle I've been curious about that in particular tbh.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 7:35:03 PM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hangemhigh1953


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA



Punishment is "negative reinforcement"... the AVOIDANCE of pain.  Works for some, not for all.



That's a common misconception. Punishment is the application of pain (be it physical, mental, emotional, etc), while negative reinforcement rewards the trainee by removing pain (like taking off a chastity device, unshackling, etc). Reinforcement acts as a reward, while punishment is, well, punishment, and only works to stop a behavior from happening, but won't permanently change it or shape a new behavior.

Sorry, I don't mean to get all technical, but since I discovered this lifestyle I've been curious about that in particular tbh.


Negative reinforcement would be the removal of pain if the pain is what the person desires.

Negative reinforcement in general is "No, you did that wrong!" Positive is "Good job!"

No?

(in reply to hangemhigh1953)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 7:35:44 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hangemhigh1953
That's a common misconception. Punishment is the application of pain (be it physical, mental, emotional, etc), while negative reinforcement rewards the trainee by removing pain (like taking off a chastity device, unshackling, etc). Reinforcement acts as a reward, while punishment is, well, punishment, and only works to stop a behavior from happening, but won't permanently change it or shape a new behavior.

Sorry, I don't mean to get all technical, but since I discovered this lifestyle I've been curious about that in particular tbh.

Now ask Me how many times I've had to punish My sub for the same thing twice? 

As a Dominant, the only thing that I need from the tool of punishment is to get a behavior to stop.  If I don't want My sub talking to person X, that's how it goes. 


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(in reply to hangemhigh1953)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 7:56:31 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: hangemhigh1953
That's a common misconception. Punishment is the application of pain (be it physical, mental, emotional, etc), while negative reinforcement rewards the trainee by removing pain (like taking off a chastity device, unshackling, etc). Reinforcement acts as a reward, while punishment is, well, punishment, and only works to stop a behavior from happening, but won't permanently change it or shape a new behavior.

Sorry, I don't mean to get all technical, but since I discovered this lifestyle I've been curious about that in particular tbh.


Now ask Me how many times I've had to punish My sub for the same thing twice? 



This answer... for some, pain avoidance CLEARLY works!!!




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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 8:11:39 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hangemhigh1953

Speaking from a strictly behavioral psychological point of view, punishment doesn't work, behavior is shaped solely through positive reinforcement (application of pleasure) or negative reinforcement (removal of pain). But then again I am very new to everything so I don't know how that fits into this lifestyle, it appears to me that training is rarely done solely for the end result, the punishment seems to often be kind of a ritual as well.


You really ought to watch the movie A Clockwork Orange.  Oh, and you really ought to know what you are talking about when you come to the forums. 

sunshine


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 8:18:13 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

You really ought to watch the movie A Clockwork Orange.



I'm siiiiiingin' in the rain... 




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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 8:22:33 PM   
hangemhigh1953


Posts: 245
Joined: 7/8/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


Negative reinforcement would be the removal of pain if the pain is what the person desires.

Negative reinforcement in general is "No, you did that wrong!" Positive is "Good job!"

No?


Maybe Wikipedia can explain better than I can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_reinforcement#Positive_and_negative_reinforcement
quote:

As Skinner discussed, positive reinforcement is superior to punishment in altering behavior. He maintained that punishment was not simply the opposite of positive reinforcement; positive reinforcement results in lasting behavioral modification, whereas punishment changes behavior only temporarily and presents many detrimental side effects.

If all you want is to modify Your subs' behavior to Your liking, it would be much faster to give them something pleasurable when they do something right, or to a lesser extent reduce their discomfort by unshackling them or something, than to use punishment.

Again though, I'm very new to this and I understand if punishment is as much a sort of "ritual" as it is behavior modification.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss



You really ought to watch the movie A Clockwork Orange. Oh, and you really ought to know what you are talking about when you come to the forums.

sunshine


Well I've studied psychology in school... I like to think I know what I'm talking about with that. Otherwise, I joined the forums so that I can learn, feel free to tell me if I'm wrong somewhere, that's why I'm here.

< Message edited by hangemhigh1953 -- 7/10/2011 8:27:24 PM >

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 9:22:14 PM   
DecadentDesire


Posts: 234
Joined: 6/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: hangemhigh1953

Speaking from a strictly behavioral psychological point of view, punishment doesn't work, behavior is shaped solely through positive reinforcement (application of pleasure) or negative reinforcement (removal of pain). But then again I am very new to everything so I don't know how that fits into this lifestyle, it appears to me that training is rarely done solely for the end result, the punishment seems to often be kind of a ritual as well.


You really ought to watch the movie A Clockwork Orange.  Oh, and you really ought to know what you are talking about when you come to the forums. 

sunshine



Well, he kind of does. In operant conditioning, they make a pretty heavy distinction between reinforcement and punishment.


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(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 9:27:51 PM   
winspiritsbaby


Posts: 141
Status: offline 		This might be a better look at operant conditioning than wikipedia for anyone who might want to understand it better...
http://www.edpsycinteractive.org/topics/behsys/operant.html

(in reply to DecadentDesire)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: question of punishment - 7/10/2011 10:04:24 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

behavior is shaped solely through positive reinforcement (application of pleasure) or negative reinforcement (removal of pain)


This is what I found off base.  To think that behavior is shaped only via receptive actions is leaving out a huge portion of the equation - biology, emotion, thoughts.
Sorry I wasn't clearer before. 


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Profile   Post #: 60
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