RE: serious question

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erieangel -> RE: serious question (7/10/2011 5:25:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: agirl I don't expect anyone to share my views... Good... so stop arguing mine. The OP asked, "*If you are a sub when can you tell when your Master has switched from serious to laid back... thank you very much for your thoughts*". Thus, I shared my thoughts... that the whole "serious" thing is both (i) contrived, and (ii) pointless -- if she belongs to him, then WHAT HE SAYS, SHE DOES. Period. He shouldn't have to take a "serious" demeanor with her for anything. I find those that use some change in "tone", "speech pattern", "mode", or whatever, comical, contrived and beyond silly -- you don't. Viva la differance!!! MS, you seem to be missing the point that people communicate in different ways depending upon the situation. The OP and her Master have children and they don't want the children to know more than they should. I can agree with that. So she is looking for advice on how they can communicate their M/s relationship and any orders he gives her without the children knowing he is issuing an order. It can be a look, a tone of voice, a touch. Anything they decide. For me, the contrivance of BDSM seems to be a lot of the protocol that goes with it, even in private. "Yes, Sir." Please. Though I'm submissive, and am happiest when others around me are happy, I am not going to call anybody Sir or Master. That for me is a hard limit.

Focus50 -> RE: serious question (7/10/2011 5:41:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Surely you could grasp that I fully understood what the OP "meant" with their question. The question is not the issue, it's the OP's thinking that's flawed -- hence the use of the word "confusion" in my reply. You and yours may operate under some contrived "mode" of sorts, I do not. And yes, they're most likely new/newish to this dynamic. Crikey, can you get anymore anal??? Sure... I could act like you. And when I push this button.... [:D] Focus.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: serious question (7/10/2011 5:46:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: agirl I don't expect anyone to share my views... Good... so stop arguing mine. The OP asked, "*If you are a sub when can you tell when your Master has switched from serious to laid back... thank you very much for your thoughts". Thus, I shared my thoughts... that the whole "serious" thing is both (i) contrived, and (ii) pointless -- if she belongs to him, then WHAT HE SAYS, SHE DOES. Period. He shouldn't have to take a "serious" demeanor with her for anything. I find those that use some change in "tone", "speech pattern", "mode", or whatever, comical, contrived and beyond silly -- you don't. Viva la differance!!! MS, you seem to be missing the point that people communicate in different ways depending upon the situation. No, I'm not. quote:* The OP and her Master have children and they don't want the children to know more than they should. Yeah... so which is more likely to raise eyebrows for the kiddies... the "serious" tone, inflection, demeanor that some subscribe to, or what we subscribe to -- speaking WITHOUT said "serious" tone, inflection, demeanor, and so forth?!! Note: This house is not a youngin'-free zone either. quote: So she is looking for advice on how they can communicate their M/s relationship and any orders he gives her without the children knowing he is issuing an order. An "order" is but an instruction... and one that need not be delivered with a "serious" tone, inflection, or demeanor. While some may think that's how a Dom/Master must "communicate their M/s relationship", I feel (from first-hand experience) that's not the case. quote: It can be a look, a tone of voice, a touch. Yes, it "can" be... or it need not be. quote: For me, the contrivance of BDSM seems to be a lot of the protocol that goes with it, even in private. "Yes, Sir." And that's just it... some view the "protocol" as that which defines the power exchange dynamic. We do not. quote: Though I'm submissive, and am happiest when others around me are happy, I am not going to call anybody Sir or Master. That for me is a hard limit. It's a hard limit for many, I'm sure... so you're likely in good company.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: serious question (7/10/2011 5:51:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 And when I push this button.... [:D] As long as it ain't THE button... push the fucker!!! [:D] [image]local://upfiles/687741/4D5BE1C242804EB2ABB543C494667F8E.jpg[/image]

sunshinemiss -> RE: serious question (7/10/2011 10:07:39 PM)
Michael, I hate the "crappy dom" thing (for what it's worth). I get it, but I hate it. Why? Because we need more like you. sunshine

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: serious question (7/10/2011 10:39:44 PM)
quote: He shouldn't have to take a "serious" demeanor with her for anything. I find those that use some change in "tone", "speech pattern", "mode", or whatever, comical, contrived and beyond silly -- you don't. But there always is a change in tone or speech pattern. Say between playful and serious. The difference between "Come here you little minx!", and "Come here, I want to talk to you" for example, or "You've been a naughty little slut" and "I'm disappointed in you". And also from laid back to serious. remember, laid back is something like "I'd like some ice cream", and serious is like "We need to discuss your behavior". I think what you are trying to say is there doesn't need to be anything that differentiates between a request and an order, and I agree with you. A request by Hanners is an order.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: serious question (7/10/2011 11:51:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: He shouldn't have to take a "serious" demeanor with her for anything. I find those that use some change in "tone", "speech pattern", "mode", or whatever, comical, contrived and beyond silly -- you don't. But there always is a change in tone or speech pattern. Say between playful and serious. The difference between "Come here you little minx!", and "Come here, I want to talk to you" for example, or "You've been a naughty little slut" and "I'm disappointed in you". Oh, between playful/flirtatious and just normal, yeah... I'd absolutely agree there is a difference -- but that's just a natural outcome to feelin' frisky and lookin' to get jiggy with it. Equally is your example of "I'm disappointed in you". Disappointment, anger, frustration, sadness, happiness, etc. are actual emotions that naturally carry over. But that's not I'm referring to as "contrived". It's when a person intentionally changes their tone, speech, demeanor, etc. Think of when you were in school, and the teacher singled you out with a certain tone to their voice, and physical demeanor. (Teacher places hands on hips, looks down at you, and speaks in a stern voice): "Now Heather, you know better than to be talking in class, don't you -- you don't want detention, do you?!!" (then the teacher's tone and demeanor changes as they go back to addressing the class). That's contrived... and that's what many on the Toppy side of the slash do, because they THINK they need to be all uber-serious to be dominant -- when in fact... they don't. If their s-type respects (and/or loves) them, it's pointless, as the outcome is the same with or without said "serious" tone/demeanor. quote: And also from laid back to serious. remember, laid back is something like "I'd like some ice cream", and serious is like "We need to discuss your behavior". Actually, your above example are both legitimate, and not what I'm addressing as "contrived". In your first example, yes... that's "laid back"... and in the second example, the person has done something WRONG -- hence, the need to "discuss" their "behavior". So agian, not what I'm addressing as contrived. A better demonstration of what I'm referring to would be to use your "I'd like some ice cream" example as follows. Ex. 1) Toppy simply states, "I'd like some ice cream" -- Natural. Ex. 2) Toppy lowers voice, stares at s-type, and in a stern voice states, "I'd like some ice cream" -- Contrived. The second example/scenario is fucking pointless. quote: I think what you are trying to say is there doesn't need to be anything that differentiates between a request and an order, and I agree with you. A request by Hanners is an order. Exactly!!! [sm=cheerleader.gif] Go Heather... Go Heather... Go Heather!!! [sm=cheerleader.gif]

DecadentDesire -> RE: serious question (7/11/2011 5:22:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather I think what you are trying to say is there doesn't need to be anything that differentiates between a request and an order. The thing is no one in this thread has once stated they "needed" to do anything different between a request and an order to get our girl or boy to obey them. At least, not that I have seen... Pretty much everyone has been talking about the differences in their own natural communication style and how their partners read that to understand different contexts. The whole notion that we all "need" to get stern or serious with our "contrived" dominance to get someone to do something is someone's personal hangup that has been projected into our viewpoints. It's why I am not treating this thread too serious. It's just someone spending 5 pages arguing against their own straw man.

DecadentDesire -> RE: serious question (7/11/2011 5:46:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA Actually, your above example are both legitimate, and not what I'm addressing as "contrived". In your first example, yes... that's "laid back"... and in the second example, the person has done something WRONG -- hence, the need to "discuss" their "behavior". So agian, not what I'm addressing as contrived. A better demonstration of what I'm referring to would be to use your "I'd like some ice cream" example as follows. Ex. 1) Toppy simply states, "I'd like some ice cream" -- Natural. Ex. 2) Toppy lowers voice, stares at s-type, and in a stern voice states, "I'd like some ice cream" -- Contrived. The second example/scenario is fucking pointless. This is a perfect example of the straw man I am talking about. The above scenario is contrived, because the tone, body language pattern, and language structure do not match the context of the request. For example, I can get my girl to get me a first aid kit by simply saying "Can you get me a first aid kit?". However, if someone is bleeding to death in front of me, I am probably going to rephrase that into a blunt order and add a sense of urgency to it, because I want to communicate that we need that first aid kit very fast. From my own examples, when I am sitting on the couch and want ice cream, a simple "Can you get me some ice cream?" in a normal vocal tone is fine for that context. But if we change the context to be asking my girl to mail some letters and one of those letters contains a check that HAS to be mailed out tommorrow, my vocal tones will become stronger and the structure of the language I used something like "I need you to mail these letters tommorrow. They must go out by the end of the day tommorrow. Do you understand?". The difference in vocal tone and language structure communicates to my girl "Oh, this is important. I need to make sure I pay attention and get this done right". I don't NEED to do either of these things to get a first aid kit or get my letter mailed, but the changes in communication style are tools being utilized to help communicate what I want done and the context that I want it done in. They are being used to improve communication. This is just all part of the normal "communication" that takes place on a daily basis in every human relationship. And based on the one-faceted approach to communication you seem to think you have, I pray that I am never on the ground, bleeding the death with my only salvation being you telling your girl/boy to get some bandages. Personally, I want some contrived dominance at that point lol.

LadyPact -> RE: serious question (7/11/2011 6:09:13 AM)
First, I'm going to apologize to the OP because I didn't really answer the original question. quote: ORIGINAL: Mastersbunny93 This is a question for all of you s/D my Master asked me to post this for Him ...Masters if ur rl with your sub are u serious 24/7 and if not how do You show her Your switching from laid back / playing to being serious about something .... as mentioned before W/were learning quite a bit and W/we talked today and i was a bit confused on when He was serious and when He was not ...He and i are togethore rl and have children so W/w are looking for ways that T/they cant tell but i can. If you are a sub when can you tell when your Master has switched from serious to laid back ... thank you very much for your thoughts People aren't going to like this answer, but I honestly look at this in the same way that I do as I would if we were talking about how do you determine the same thing as you would your boss at work. Whether your boss is being strict or laid back, that person is still always your boss while you are there. That underlying authority structure is always in place. Your boss might be saying please and thank you (or not), asking you or telling you what you are supposed to do, and it's your job to carry that out. Some people don't like the above analogy because they say that their relationship isn't a job. Yet, when you have an authority structure in place, it really is similar. In D/s, you have one person who is in charge and another person who has agreed to accept that authority. quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Oh bullshit. That is only true if someone is so shallow that raising their voice or barking orders is the only way to get obeyed but some of us can "contrive" the tones and resononce in our voices that not only get us a glass of water but it is brought by a woman who's cunt just got wet and who's headspace went from "career" to "slave". I open the door for my woman always, I believe in being a gentleman but sometimes barking an order is hot for both, sometimes simply rubbing the rim of an empty glass does the trick and of course, "my dear woman, bring my paddle on the way to refilling the glass you let become empty" results in a fun afternoon. The reality is that any decent "dominance" is a box full of stuff that that particular dom tends to do with all his partners as well as things that they have discovered work for them. Take "good girl", works for many but not all, same goes for "slut" and "woman". But then again, being a "CrappyDom" what the hell do I know anyway? I was having a bit of a laugh at the last part in My earlier post, but I agree with so much that was said here. (Genders reversed, of course.) Depending on a person's point of view, the above can be seen as "contrived" but I'm more in the 'setting the headspace' camp. I might want to inspire the a certain type of feeling within My submissive, and use different tone and inflection to get that particular result. That doesn't mean the underlying authority wasn't there to begin with. I'm just using a certain technique to bring what I want to the surface.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: serious question (7/11/2011 9:30:20 AM)
quote: The second example/scenario is fucking pointless. Not really. The point was that the difference between laid back and serious is in the context not the words/tone. Your example of the "get me some ice cream" said in a serious tone is to my mind still laid back, what makes something serious is what is being said, not how it's said. The terms laid back and serious are not opposites to my mind, even with a "we need to talk" Hanners would usually say it in the same tone as the ice cream request. <Well not actually, around here a request for ice cream is usually accompanied with evil undertones>. See, nothing I post is ever pointless, fucking or otherwise, though sometimes the point might be a little hard to see.

leadership527 -> RE: serious question (7/11/2011 11:38:20 AM)
So then without trying to talk about anyone else's relationship or style, I can definitely agree with that DD is talking about in my marriage. My tone and speech patterns both change all over the map depending on the situation. Carol is expected to interpret those properly or seek guidance where it's unclear. I do my best to clarify when I think it might be unclear. I demand the ability to make all three of these communications and make them effectively. Any "slave" who felt they needed to reinterpret my questions into commands would get very strongly corrected... and dropped if they couldn't learn. Get me a glass of water mine. This is the flat out command form. It means get it now. Mine? Are you too buried in oil paints to fetch me a glass of water? This is a command too... but the command is not "get me a glass of water" The command is, "Answer my fucking question." I'd be genuinely pissed if she went and got me the glass of water at the expense of her current oil painting. Mine? Can you get me a glass of water? This is half & half. It's a "soft command". If I state it like this I do not have any expectation of immediacy (which with Carol also runs the risk of totally being forgotten so the command might need to be repeated or else I might need to go get the water myself. She might also answer the question with a "yes", "no", or most likely, "Sure, give me a moment." Obviously, when I give a command in this way I have to be OK with either repeating the command... perhaps more strongly... or else just getting the water myself. Conveniently for me that's exactly what I want some of the time. I'm actually rather astonished that this is even a question. I can guarantee that none of this is "contrived". It is me using the English language effectively to communicate to my subordinate.

DecadentDesire -> RE: serious question (7/11/2011 11:59:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I'm actually rather astonished that this is even a question. I can guarantee that none of this is "contrived". It is me using the English language effectively to communicate to my subordinate. I know what you mean. To quote MasterSlaveLA on page 4... quote: Gee... what a difficult concept... normal communication. GASP!!!

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: serious question (7/11/2011 12:58:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: The second example/scenario is fucking pointless. Not really. The point was that the difference between laid back and serious is in the context not the words/tone. I'd disagree. For me, the "tone" (and demeanor) in the second example/scenario is contrived. (Definition of Contrived: "Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously") quote: Your example of the "get me some ice cream" said in a serious tone is to my mind still laid back, what makes something serious is what is being said, not how it's said. I think you're misunderstanding... one can be "serious" (i.e., not joking) about truly wanting ice cream... but to deliberately add a "serious" tone, inflection, and deameanor to said request is "contrived". (Again, the definition of contrived: "Deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously") quote: The terms laid back and serious are not opposites to my mind They are to mine... (shrugs) quote: See, nothing I post is ever pointless... I think you misunderstood... I was NOT stating what you'd posted was "pointless"... but rather, the Toppy's contrived behavior in Example/Scenario #2 was "pointless". Sorry if you took that otherwise, as that was certainly not the intent of the comment. [:)]

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: serious question (7/11/2011 1:03:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire Do you want some cheese to go with that whine?!! Good GAWD... what a cry-baby you are. [8\|]

DecadentDesire -> RE: serious question (7/11/2011 6:27:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire Do you want some cheese to go with that whine?!! Good GAWD... what a cry-baby you are. [8\|] Sure. I hear it goes good when you follow it up with a little straw to chew on lol.

Focus50 -> RE: serious question (7/12/2011 4:15:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact First, I'm going to apologize to the OP because I didn't really answer the original question. In pondering a recent thread of my own, I'm thinking such graciousness reflects a current mood rather than some greater personal principle or philosophy, yeah? [:-] Lol Focus.

LadyPact -> RE: serious question (7/12/2011 9:21:56 AM)
Not that I think it's terribly good form to bring one thread to another, but you really already know the answer to your question, since I told you previously in the other thread.

agirl -> RE: serious question (7/14/2011 1:59:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 So then without trying to talk about anyone else's relationship or style, I can definitely agree with that DD is talking about in my marriage. My tone and speech patterns both change all over the map depending on the situation. Carol is expected to interpret those properly or seek guidance where it's unclear. I do my best to clarify when I think it might be unclear. I demand the ability to make all three of these communications and make them effectively. Any "slave" who felt they needed to reinterpret my questions into commands would get very strongly corrected... and dropped if they couldn't learn. Get me a glass of water mine. This is the flat out command form. It means get it now. Mine? Are you too buried in oil paints to fetch me a glass of water? This is a command too... but the command is not "get me a glass of water" The command is, "Answer my fucking question." I'd be genuinely pissed if she went and got me the glass of water at the expense of her current oil painting. Mine? Can you get me a glass of water? This is half & half. It's a "soft command". If I state it like this I do not have any expectation of immediacy (which with Carol also runs the risk of totally being forgotten so the command might need to be repeated or else I might need to go get the water myself. She might also answer the question with a "yes", "no", or most likely, "Sure, give me a moment." Obviously, when I give a command in this way I have to be OK with either repeating the command... perhaps more strongly... or else just getting the water myself. Conveniently for me that's exactly what I want some of the time. I'm actually rather astonished that this is even a question. I can guarantee that none of this is "contrived". It is me using the English language effectively to communicate to my subordinate. I have to commend you on your patience and really nice post........I lost interest after saying and demonstrating the same thing. Actually, I think that I can't adequately demonstate that do doesn't alter, but the impetus does. And I hate repeating myself. agirl

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