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RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 5:10:46 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demspotis
ISKCON really doesn't starve people of protein; their diet only restricts from certain sources of protein (meat, fish, eggs), but uses, sometimes heavily, others: dairy products and legumes. They're part of Hinduism, which has thousands of years of experience with nutritionally safe vegetarianism. Whatever problems there are in ISKCON come from other sources, not the diet! Nor from the teachings or instructions of their founding guru, but in direct and blatant violation of them.

Nope, but historically there are some really bloody nasty precedents for behaviour that isn't even remotely Hindu in ISKCON. Most of their behaviour when the power struggle over who ran the cult was going on during the '70s was utterly disgusting, for a start.

(I think I was confusing them with the Moonies over the diet thing, though.)

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RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 7:05:19 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Especially the monarchy, I meant to say.

Gee! I thought I was railing against incestuous cults

Indeed you were. I was merely bringing up r/l examples that are commonly ignored in such discussions. The Rothschilds in the 19th century married primarily amoungst first cousins, as another example. They were fortunate in not having double recessive genes towards various species-depleting anomalies, in contrast to the unfortunate experience of the monarchy in that regard.

Before the awareness of variation of genes amoungst species was properly understood, "keeping it in the family" was taken a bit too literally by those of great power or great wealth.

But the cult of monarchy still obtains for some Europeans, last I looked.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/15/2011 7:26:11 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

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RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 7:36:43 AM

LadyConstanze

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I think the whole monarchy thing has a lot more fans in the US than it has here, seriously that big thing when 3rd in line and new wife went to the US and had the US in a frenzy, can't understand what the big deal is about, saw a few pics and just thought that wifelet looks dangerously underweight, I'm a fan of slim but she's pushing it Twiggy style...

As for examples of inbreeding, you wanna check for the Hapsburg lip, I recall from my history lessons that there was a saying along the lines "Other countries go to war for new territory, lucky Austria marries" - unfortunately a lot of cousins, so they produced a fair share of chinless wonders with protruding bottom lips...

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Post #: 83

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 7:55:57 AM

Edwynn

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But the US doesn't have a living monarchy in place, unlike some other countries. It's one thing to observe, however salaciously, but another matter to actually recognize and materially support it.

No argument from me though, the US media machine out-paces the European media machine, by however slight the margin. Paparazzi were not invented here, just so we know.

The visit of prince and the princess was just the story after the latest sensational child murder and before the next exposé on the deviant drug dealing or wife beating by the host of some 'reality' TV show. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the royal couple were anything more than the usual media fodder here, just because the US media spend grossly inordinate sums in that cause.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/15/2011 8:09:28 AM >

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Post #: 84

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 8:07:14 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

But the US doesn't have a living monarchy in place, unlike some other countries. It's one thing to observe, however salaciously, but another matter to actually recognize and materially support it.

No argument from me though, the US media machine out-paces the European media machine, by however slight the margin. Paparazzi were not invented here, just so we know.

The visit of prince and the princess was just the story after the latest sensational child murder and before the next exposé on the deviant drug dealing or wife beating by the host of some 'reality' TV show. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the royal couple was anything more than the usual media fodder here, just because the US spends grossly inordinate sums in that cause.

So the UK has a monarchy, big deal, it's a quaint thing left from the past, it's not that this little old lady marches around and says "Oh he didn't bow right, chop chop, off with their heads", personally I think they keep them mainly for the tourists.

Now what makes you think it is so different in other European countries? Do you think they report on the Royals because they are so interested in them and think they have power? They're just celebs, a bit like the Hilton offspring, usually good for a story, Phil the Greek frequently ends up with foot in mouth disease, and the young redhead too. Makes for a good story, entertains the masses, not like they actually do any active running of the country. For that I think you have to look more towards the Emirates.

Paparazzi tend to have their best business in LA, it seems to slowly creep more into other cities and countries though, mind you we possibly have to thank Australia for giving us Murdoch...

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There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

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(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 85

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 8:28:19 AM

Edwynn

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"They're just celebs,"

Thanks for getting the point.

Which explains why the US has no value for monarchy beyond whatever sensationalist value might be obtained thereby.

Which explains why the media here put no value whatsoever in any r/l consequences, but rather the 'media value' of any item, and lest it might have escaped notice, this whole 'Democrat /Republican' thing has become a complete joke, which many of the population here has fallen for hook line and sinker, even as the media make further joke with it.

All anybody wants anymore is the drama, or at least to say that is what the media pushes incessantly, eagerly trained as they both are thuswise.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/15/2011 8:37:50 AM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 86

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 8:37:21 AM

LadyConstanze

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Oddly enough whenever some royal goes to the US, a lot of US citizens bend over backwards to know all about them, meet them, because it's glamorous for them, to the point that your Hollywood Royalty will marry people who have paid for adoption to get their titles - something that's really frowned upon and ridiculed in most of Europe.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 87

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 8:57:08 AM

Edwynn

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People are naturally interested in things not of their own previous experience. It does not mean that they hold greater value in something that is of others' experience, merely that they are exploring why people would actually do that.

But as said earlier; media fodder is media fodder.

People here 'bend over backwards' at the merest behest of the media, and willingly go where thus directed, but you are trying to tell us that Europe is significantly apart in that regard, do I have this right?

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/15/2011 9:04:52 AM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 88

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 9:25:37 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

People are naturally interested in things not of their own previous experience. It does not mean that they hold greater value in something that is of others' experience, merely that they are exploring why people would actually do that.

But as said earlier; media fodder is media fodder.

People here 'bend over backwards' at the merest behest of the media, and willingly go where thus directed, but you are trying to tell us that Europe is significantly apart in that regard, do I have this right?

No, I'm saying that it's not quite yet at the stage the US seems to suffer from, if you doubt me I have 2 words for you:

JERRY SPRINGER

Sure Europe has sensationalist media, the UK has their fair share of tabloids, possibly more than any other European country, but that eagerness to make a complete and utter fool out of yourself on TV for 10 minutes of fame seems to be a very American concept - or I am not watching enough TV.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 89

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 9:48:15 AM

Edwynn

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I've never disputed that, rather have I fed into your notion of US media 'out of bounds' even better than you yourself could.

I was merely pointing out a blind side of the other party there.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 90

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 9:52:19 AM

Edwynn

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Oh my; did I use the terms 'party' and 'out of bounds' in the same post there?

Oh, forgive me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAukUL1volI

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 91

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 9:58:23 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

I've never disputed that, rather have I fed into your notion of US media 'out of bounds' even better than you yourself could.

I was merely pointing out a blind side of the other party there.

Having worked for the US media, I think you are a tad unfair, they're not all just sensationalist, you have some rather good media outlets but they do not cater to the masses so much. A friend of mine worked for a very popular news outlet in NYC, and she said even years after she left, she could still hear her editor scream "Blood and gore, I need blood and gore..." If you do look at the advertising a magazine displays, it usually tells you all about the clientel they cater to, and they make their money from the ads... It really can be that simple

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 92

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 10:02:41 AM

Edwynn

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They make their money from ads? Really?

And all this time I thought ...

Never mind.

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Post #: 93

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 11:27:53 AM

LadyConstanze

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The money you pay for the print edition usually doesn't even cover part of the staff costs. When you get approached to work for a particular outlet, they usually dress it up a lot, so all you do is pick up an edition or check their webpage, the ads they run tells you all you need to know about the readership.

While I am not too much of a Mac fan (despite using one most of the time - which is possibly why), you can tell where they advertise, in fact I think their advertising is far more superior than the product and they are superb when it comes to product placement

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 94

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 11:58:14 AM

Edwynn

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I was kidding, Lady C, the media have never made money off of anything but adverts, I thought that would be the assumption of most any person.

In any regards; the media in Europe are owned by media conglomerates, whereas the media in the US are now owned by corporate conglomerates that use the media subsidiary as purpose to their overriding agenda. GE owns NBC, Westinghouse owns CBS, etc. Murdoch owns the Wall Street Journal, and if that isn't the biggest media travesty ever, I don't know what would be.

In my past life, I worked with plenty from the media biz, so I am well acquainted with how things work in that venue, even before we get to ownership or putative 'agenda' therewith. They are in their own world, to say the least. I dated (and sometimes lived with) a local 11:00 PM news anchor for close to two years, but she was actually a sane person. She is one of my information sources as to how wacky things are in that arena.

I think that Europeans like their 'drama' every bit as much, if not more so, than those in the US. The problem is that the US media make the most serious of questions, those that have real consequences, into just another 'reality' TV show.

Forget any "just the facts, Ma'am" approach; what sells adverts is drama, howevermuch contrived. We'd never even be aware of Palin or Bachmann were this not the case.

"Dancing With The Stars" is so easily interchangeable with "Dancing With The Politicians" here.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/15/2011 12:32:50 PM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 95

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 12:33:41 PM

LadyConstanze

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See, I don't think Palin, Bachmann or the O'Donnell nutcase would have gotten much attention here if they wouldn't have been built up by the US media as celebs. I watched with fascination how some reality show winners had their brief time in the lime light, never quite figured out why it is important what somebody thinks who's willing to live their life in front of cameras (gosh, there was that movie, wasn't there? Forgot the name) and who's willing to do whatever it takes to win a reality show. It's usually a brief stay (like most X Factor winners they have the life span of a fruit fly) but why would anybody be interested in that?

I could never get into the drama of will a BB contestant break up or not with another contestant, who the fuck will win the jungle trial or whatever rubbish they come up with, just floors me... I found the Ozzy show amusing at first (especially the pooping dogs, you could show dog poop but not the word, oh no... "Shaaaaaaaaaaaron, the *BLEEP* dog *BLEEP* on the carpet again") but yeah, that was it. Why would anybody watch it when they could have a walk, read a book, go to the gym or just do something useful?

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 96

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 12:41:22 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

So just from looking at that stuff, am I wrong or do most religions and cults work on people's guilt and insecurities to manipulate them?

Societies are classifiable by their socialization patterns, and guilt-driven vs. shame-driven is one of the major axes.

Religions and cults are not particularly different in that regard, which makes sense, as that's the original form of society-building.

quote:

Last thing I would want to have would be the leader of a religion,

Is it the responsibility or the temptation that gets to you?

quote:

but I can't help but think there are some clever buggers out there who make up concepts and people fall for them, now my rational mind is trying to discover the "secret sauce", guilt, fear and promises seem to be the main ingredients, then something that promises happiness and keep it all vague enough so you can explain even the most mundane things...

This is called "hope".

Reality is a very sucky place, consisting of a variable degree of losses and wins, with the absolute limit being zero points. Few people ever get anywhere near as fortunate as to achieve zero points, and for the vast majority of humanity, the notion of life as suffering is apt. The default condition of humanity is abject poverty, with intermittent bouts of disease, hunger, natural disasters and wars. Some few people work to avoid it, but the necessary qualities inherently cause resistance, and most societies are successful at expelling or terminating the factors in them that can inflict happiness or stability.

Since time immemorial, religions have introduced such odd notions as "hope", "justice", "deservedness" and so forth. The idea that the scales will balance overall, and even should balance, is central to this theme. When you throw in an afterlife, or several cycles of life, you introduce the ability to balance the books on a cosmic scale, even though they demonstrably do not balance in a single lifetime of a single individual. There is some value to that notion, at least in its functional effect on people.

In a lot of situations, the objectively sensible thing is to kill a few people, grab their money and leave for a poorer country before anyone has time to nail you. The formerly presented ideas introduce the illusion that you're likely to be caught. And the illusion that things could conceivably work out for you in the long run if you just live a good life and don't drag others down to help yourself. And, finally, the idea that if it all goes down the drain, there will be something to make it worthwhile.

This scaffolding allows things like cooperation and infrastructure. Health care, representative government, law enforcement, money... it's all built on a social contract that is worked into the rearing process before a child is old enough to participate in a social contract. And you may note that law enforcement extends this to also cover adults, using the ages old formula.

Building societies, nations, etc., is a dirty and dishonest business.

Most people still prefer it to the alternative, though.

quote:

What else have I missed?

The point.

Leaving you in good company.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 97

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 1:03:20 PM

LadyConstanze

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it's just wondering why people fall for it, building societies and nations, well there is something in it for people, an infrastructure, things are done for them, there is protection like health insurance, etc., when it comes to religion, most people do things for that reward in the afterlife or some other idea.

As for not wanting to be a cult leader, I hate speaking in front of lots of people and even more selling stuff to them (kinda ironic since I work in PR but hey, I just develop the concept) and it's that pesky thing about feeling a bit shit if you are selling castles in the air to people who are obviously a bit handy capped and need false hope, I might as well become a Republican.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 98

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 1:07:41 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

You need a leader that people will trust instinctively, some one who exudes an aura of calm and reason, somebody like...

... me.

No, really, you want Charles Manson or something.

Charisma, conviction and so forth are pretty good if you go that route.

If Osama, while alive, had been the kind of person people tend to peg him as, then he would've probably started a cult and been quite successful at it. Instead, he chose to be a figurehead for another guy, and effectively also the associated organization. As such, he was so successful that only the USA ever managed to be a greater asset to them. Imagine what he could've done as a cultist in the Bible Belt.

He did look a whole lot like Jesus, after all.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 99

RE: Starting a cult - 7/15/2011 1:17:15 PM

LadyConstanze

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Hey, and don't forget who gave him all the education when they thought they could use them for their own purposes, funny how that always seems to backfire for the US...

But hey, I think you'd make a great cult leader and I just handle the whole merchandising

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 100

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