Starting a cult (Full Version)

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LadyConstanze -> Starting a cult (7/11/2011 7:28:18 PM)

I don't plan to but it came up a few times lately, last time in the post about the name the Beck's picked for their daughter (considering the voices of the parents, good thing it's finally a girl - meep meep) and recently with a vanilla friend, really decent chap but was dating a psycho who claimed to be a spiritualist, she spent inane amounts of money (his, she's too spiritual to work for money) on some seriously brain dead stuff where she talked with the angels and the universe.

Now don't get me wrong, despite being an agnostic I don't mind spirituality, I actually love the whole pagan concepts with whatever you put out comes back 3 fold - what an excellent way of not freaking somebody out with fear (hellfire, brimstone, eternal damnation) but making them reflect what they do and consequences, and so far no pagan or wiccan has knocked on my door trying to get me to sign up and donate my money to them.... Though this bird (mercifully the ex now) is about as spiritual as my dogs are restrained when it comes to scoffing treats, she's physically violent but she manipulated him quite well with throwing him a bone (affection) whenever he had enough, due to being quite horrid most of the time, the times she was nice to him were so "special" for him, he would have done everything. Makes me laugh a bit that she was always the one who was on and on about being in tune with the forces of the universe, the earth and angels who send waves and light...

So just from looking at that stuff, am I wrong or do most religions and cults work on people's guilt and insecurities to manipulate them? Last thing I would want to have would be the leader of a religion, but I can't help but think there are some clever buggers out there who make up concepts and people fall for them, now my rational mind is trying to discover the "secret sauce", guilt, fear and promises seem to be the main ingredients, then something that promises happiness and keep it all vague enough so you can explain even the most mundane things... What else have I missed?



CarpeComa -> RE: Starting a cult (7/11/2011 7:57:46 PM)

The key to a successful cult or religion isn't preying on guilt and insecurities or manipulating people (though these help). The key is that it makes the follower feel special and/or part of something.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Starting a cult (7/11/2011 8:07:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa

The key to a successful cult or religion isn't preying on guilt and insecurities or manipulating people (though these help). The key is that it makes the follower feel special and/or part of something.



I dunno, I would think there is a bit more to it, if you're just feeling part of something or special, it could be a football club and it seems that they need a bit more to stick with it. As I said, I am just too damned logic to see the real appeal but for me cults and religions are usually not all that different, there always seems to be the guilt factor, and insecurity and validation because why else would they want to be part of it?



twistedwillow -> RE: Starting a cult (7/11/2011 8:14:17 PM)

There is no difference between a cult and a religion, a religion is just a cult that more people adhere to.
And yes, that does include Paganism etc ( and no, i am not an atheist, i am a Pagan )

Forgot to add, i believe they work on fear and the promise of reward in the afterlife for having such a sucky here and now. It also helps if the leader of the cult is charismatic.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Starting a cult (7/11/2011 8:17:07 PM)

I dunno, so far no Pagan, Jew or Buddhist tried to convert me, a lot of cults tried to recruit me by ringing my door...

Could be wrong here but there seems to be a major difference between people who are spiritual because it feels right for them and people who claim to be spiritual because it gives them an excuse to be idiots (though their reasoning is usually pretty shite - might make sense to them though but I doubt it)



twistedwillow -> RE: Starting a cult (7/11/2011 8:24:34 PM)

I think the Paganism practiced today is a lot more 'live and let live' than it was previously.
And in any religion there are zealots who try to convert.

Not a conversion zealot so much as just an idiot, but in the news awhile go here in Aus there was a 'white witch' who tried to tell the courts she didn't live by our rules because she was above them etc. That kind of thing makes even those of us who live by the law of 3 kinda say, 'Just this once? I promise no negative energy after this one'

That was totally off topic, but just trying to point out that all religion/spiritual pathways have their numbnuts.

oh and FTR, you would so totally make an awesome Cult Leader LadyC [:D]



LadyPact -> RE: Starting a cult (7/11/2011 8:27:17 PM)

I couldn't say anything about going on the fears and insecurities to manipulate others.  That has something to do with why I prefer using the term faith in these matters.  Probably too complicated for Me to explain here.

My reasons for not feeling too aligned with organized religion has quite a bit to do with the "organized" part.  Steeples and stained glass are really pretty to look at, but being the practical sort that I am, I can't help but to think of better uses for money. 



HannahLynHeather -> RE: Starting a cult (7/11/2011 9:26:13 PM)

yeah, fear, guilt, loneliness, pain, whatever sucks in a person's life you prey on that. target any weakness they show. you promise the marks that it will all be better at some distant point in the future, preferably only after they fucking die so there's no way for you to be called on your bullshit. if you're really fucking sly you'd do what the mormons do and invent retroactive memberships. yup, pay me enough and i'll go back in time and save your dead relatives too, ain't i fucking kind?

in order to pull it off you have to have the ability to lie. lie lie lie, every damn thing you say is probably going to be a fucking lie, and you have to keep on with those lies, and the biggest is that you believe the shit you're peddling. you also have to deny the possibility of anybody else having access to the truth. everybody BUT you is lying. you don't need any proof of the shit you're foisting on them either, just a smoke screen: "god works in mysterious ways, god is unknowable"

another essential ingredient is persecution. your followers need to believe they are threatened. it really doesn't matter one fucking bit if they are or not, as long as they think they are. <lying, remember> that way when your lies are challenged you can tell your sheep that those doing the challenging are trying to destroy you because they fear the "truth" of your words. it also makes it easier for you to dismiss any reasonable questioning of your teachings. it's helpful if you can make the enemy a specific real world group, scientists is a fave. if you can't find some group to play romans, or even if you can, make one the fuck up, isn't satan a convenient concept? even honest doubt and common sense can be pinned on him.

you also have to make it fucking impossible for your followers to follow your teachings completely, they have to keep failing, hopefully only in little ways, but still they have to fail, so they can be guilted further. make the teachings run counter to human fucking nature so they just can't follow them all the time. if you can hit them with sexual taboos as well you really have the fuckers then. they will break them and feel guilty, but also feel like perverts so an added load of guilt and fear. the constant failure also gives you an out when the shit you promise them doesn't come through: "so sorry, you sinned so you don't get the reward, make a donation and try harder next time." [;)][;)]

basically you just have to be a completely amoral lying shit who is willing to inflict as much guilt and pain on your followers as possible while promising them the fucking sun and the moon. get that down and you're well on your way to being a fucking messiah.




FelineFae -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 1:20:34 AM)

* knock knock *
Hannah, have you welcomed the joy of Kink into your life ?



BitaTruble -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 1:25:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

What else have I missed?


The money! Think Ponzi if you want it to really work. [;)]



LadyConstanze -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 1:45:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

What else have I missed?


The money! Think Ponzi if you want it to really work. [;)]


Wouldn't "donations to show the faith" be better?



HannahLynHeather -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 1:47:20 AM)

penance, make them grateful for giving you the cash.



BitaTruble -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 1:51:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze



Wouldn't "donations to show the faith" be better?



Wording is everything. Isn't being repaid 10x somewhere in the bible? The ultimate Ponzi scheme. [;)]



FelineFae -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 1:56:30 AM)

What about mind-altering substances, not being permitted to sleep, and food restrictions ?

e2a
Oh wait, that's the army...



LadyConstanze -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 2:09:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

penance, make them grateful for giving you the cash.



Yeah but thanks to the Catholics the whole hellfire and brimstone concept has been overdone already, I like the idea of helping them to shed the burden of material goods so they can achieve a higher spiritual existence (out of the goodness of my heart, I would take the financial burden for them), but I think it's been done already. If I want all the Prada bags in the world, I have to come up with a better scheme!



HannahLynHeather -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 2:18:47 AM)

true, originality counts. let's see. well indulgences haven't been done in a few centuries. how about you steal from the mormons and the papists: sell indulgences for the forgiveness of fucking dead people. everybody has a multitude of dead ancestors and they all have some fucking thing to atone for




LadyConstanze -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 2:38:41 AM)

I think a bit of new age stuff would just make it more appealing and exotic, you know something where people sit in a very uncomfy tent somewhere far away and do a bit of navel gazing to find their inner true selfs, a bit of sex maybe too?



PeonForHer -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 2:40:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Wouldn't "donations to show the faith" be better?



You mean 'tributes'?

Heh. OK, we won't get into that one again here. [;)]



HannahLynHeather -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 2:48:48 AM)

i did know a guy who tried to start a sex cult. it involved a lot of psylocibin.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Starting a cult (7/12/2011 2:55:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

i did know a guy who tried to start a sex cult. it involved a lot of psylocibin.




LOL, not a sex cult but declare some sexual problems as your life force not being aligned with the universe/angels/aliens who came to visit and are trapped inside of our bodies or something like that and guys would have a brilliant excuse for their erection problems.



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