RE: Mental Health

RE: Mental Health (Full Version)

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Iamsemisweet -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 4:45:53 PM)
As for me, abolition of the death penalty will never, ever be a cause that I will contribute to, professionally, financially, or in any other way. I just don't have an ethical or moral problem with it, and I don't really care how that makes anyone else feel. I certainly haven't heard anything here that has changed my mind, foot stomping, name calling, and self righteousness aside. I do think we need to insist and have the right to expect that the process is fair, and between the appeals process and the writ of habeas corpus, I believe it is. Insuring a fair process is something I am willing to fight for. As for you Canadians with strong opinions, Canada has an extradition treaty that forbids extradition if there is a possibility of capital punishment. So, your hands are clean.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:46:55 PM)
quote: foot stomping, name calling, and self righteousness aside. Pot, meet kettle.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:57:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: foot stomping, name calling, and self righteousness aside. Pot, meet kettle. Example? On my part.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 5:58:08 PM)
quote: While you are trying to play dumb, we both know you knew this answer I wasn't playing dumb, I was trying to get you to see the flaw in your position, which, even though you will not admit it, I am confident you have, since you have avoided answering the question in several posts now. It seems to me that you are now taking the position that right and wrong are determined by popular opinion, that consensus determines this. I find this an interesting idea, however a moments thought reveals that it too is flawed. By this standard, things that were right can change and become wrong. Again, think of the slave trade, it once was the general consensus that it was a good thing, that it was right. However, that consensus was incorrect, the slave trade was always an evi I find this to be a very tenuous position, that sort moral relativism isn't something I can accept. I'm very sorry, but majority rules simply is not an acceptable basis for a system of morality or ethics, surely you can see that.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:10:57 PM)
There's where we differ Lilly, I believe that morality is universal. Individual moral codes may differ, but if something is wrong, then it is wrong. I'm really sorry, but any other position, is to me, simply making excuses rather than facing up to the reality of what one has done. I honestly cannot comprehend how anybody could disagree with this. To do so, simply renders the entire concept of right and wrong moot and irrelevant. Good and evil cease to have any meaning whatsoever. Where I do see plenty of room for disagreement is in determining just what is right and what is wrong. Individual moral codes can differ, but the underlying principle of the universality of right and wrong is the fundamental necessity of any such code. If you believe that an act is wrong, then you must believe that it is equally wrong for everybody, regardless of how they may view it. Without this, right and wrong merely become empty labels we apply at whim to whatever we like or dislike. Which, as I said, renders them meaningless. In your example, the person did the correct thing by doing something that is wrong. She chose the lesser of two evils, which, despite being the lesser of the two, is nonetheless, still an evil.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:19:43 PM)
quote: Example? On my part. Your posts fairly drip with self righteousness, you have posted several times in a manner that to me would count as foot stomping, and you have been insulting. Go back to your first post and start reading if you don't believe me. I have neither the time nor the inclination to go back and find examples, because I have absolutely zero interest in whether you see yourself as blameless or not. The truth of the matter is, you are not blameless. And the truth is good enough for me, I see no need to prove it, it is plain for all to see.

barelynangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:43:54 PM)
No Heather there is no flaw in my beliefs or position and just because you say there is because well gee i don't AGREE with you lol doesn't make it so. I am sure if i agreed with you -- my position would have no flaw. See how that works. And i have answered the question -- your stating i haven't doesn't mean i haven't. So try discussing instead of telling me what i am not doing because you refuse to see it. You seem to think just because YOU say it is so it must be. Sorry to disappoint you but your position in that is flawed lol. Perhaps instead of trying to tell what you believe i mean -- you instead worry about stating your own position. Saying killing is wrong is flawed because its not an absolute and if you start speaking of evil synonymous with killing as a whole, i won't waste my time with you. The choice is yours. Heather, as i told Arpig before, we are discussing the death penalty -- that is the ONLY subject being discussed. I am not going to start comparing and contrasting moral beliefs of torture or specifics of same or slavery. I am speaking ONLY of the death penalty. You are now in your arrogance trying to indicate that societies wherein slavery lasted 100s of years throughout world history were wrong because YOUR morals state it shows that you fully believe that our society has it "right." I don't agree. But that is another thread. So are you going to keep trying to tell me what i am not doing or tell me what i am trying to say -- or are you actually going to discuss what you believe and why you believe your concepts are (outside of absoluteness please) relevant to my beliefs that the death penalty is necessary as is killing at times. angel

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 6:50:16 PM)
quote: there is always a BUT.... or an if this than that. I agree, however, the BUT is a But it was excusable. It does not alter the fundamental nature of the act. quote: There is no moral consensus in our country, i.e., the US. Again, you are equating popular opinion with fundamental truths of right and wrong. Popular opinion varies with time and location. In Saudi Arabia, the consensus holds it to be perfectly acceptable to execute a woman for marital infidelity, in their eyes this is the right course of action. I am sure you do not agree, I'm sure you see what they are doing as wrong, evil, and barbaric. Am I not correct? quote: So a 5 year old who kills his brother because he found a gun and shot him committed an EVIL act? Yes, one for which the blame lies with the person who allowed the 5-year old to find the gun. However, the killing itself is still evil. quote: A person who is driving a car and loses control of same and kills someone commits an evil act? Yes, where the blame lies depends on the reason the driver lost control, but the killing itself is still an evil thing, it is still a wrong. quote: A doctor who is doing surgery and makes a mistake and the person dies even though it was a known risk the doctor commited an evil act. Yes, one for which he is entirely to blame and the killing itself is, once again, evil. quote: Good grief -- now we are throwing around the world EVIL when it comes to killing. Talk about emotional drama being brought in. Yes I am using the appropriate word, the fact that it upsets you so to use it when it is entirely apt is very telling. Again, it shows that you do indeed understand the weakness of your position. Rather than engage me by discussing the flaws I have pointed out, you continually deflect the discussion onto irrelevant areas, such as the existence of inane laws or the use of the word "evil". The evidence is clear; you cannot account for the flaws in your position, and rather than admit as much, you obfuscate and deflect.

barelynangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 7:05:37 PM)
Nevermind. Your innocence in this heather is something i am very glad regarding. Heather again, i am waiting for you to discuss your position. YOu seem to keep wanting to incorrectly tell me what MY position is. You may want to stop because you are wrong. Here is my position as simple and plan as it can be -- i believe in the death penalty. I believe in killing someone if it is carried out as part of a criminal conviction. I believe killing is right at times and very necessary. My experience, the legalities, the governing bodies that form those legalities, and my beliefs of society and what is correct all weigh in to those decision on my part. I know what my position is -- you obviously don't because you keep trying to tell me incorrectly about what my position is. My position is very simple, the discussion of same is simply discussion. You haven't discussed your position at all beyond simply saying killing is evil. Sorry that doesn't fly with me and your concept of UNIVERAL -- whose universe Heather? Seems to me if it's not your beliefs, they are wrong. And Heather, your arrogance in believing our societies in our world now have it right and so anything we find abhorrant were wrong in the past and in history is unbelievable. Personally, i believe our societies need to go back to a lot of concepts historical societies held, and yes, i do believe it means slavery of some. angel

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 7:21:07 PM)
So basically, you continue to maintain that the concepts of right and wrong are entirely relative and depend on when and where one happens to be. Fine, there is no point discussing this, or any other issue of a moral or ethical nature, with you, because you effectively have no morals, yours are variable, what is wrong today can be right tomorrow. What I find interesting is that you refuse to entertain any position but your own, and you state quite plainly that your position is the correct one, and that it is flawless, yet you accuse others who also hold their views to be correct of arrogance, yet when you do the exact same thing, you are somehow not being arrogant. While we are discussing the death penalty, that debate reached a point where the point of contention was if it was morally right or not, and it became obvious that we needed to examine the concepts of moral rightness involved in order to determine their applicability. I have found places and examples where it appears that your position does not hold up. You have not addressed those when asked to, you continue to insist that I am wrong, without yet putting forward a single example of where I am, without my addressing it openly and immediately. There is one person here debating this like an teenager, and it isn't the teenager. Thanks for your input, barely, it has given me much to consider, and I know it isn't the result you had hoped for, but it has reinforced my belief that I am on the right track, that I have the the right idea, because the one you propose is apparently unworkable. From this, I can only conclude that your views on the death penalty cannot be considered seriously, because they are based on an unsound foundation. I will have to continue thinking on the topic, again thanks for inadvertently nudging me further in the direction I was inclined by my moral beliefs to go anyway. It is always nice to have one's ideas confirmed, if even in a small way.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 7:24:34 PM)
If innocence means believing there is such a thing as right and wrong, then I am content to be seen as an innocent in your eyes. It is by far preferable to the apparent alternative.

erieangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 7:32:55 PM)
Some people are inherently evil?? Now I see where you are coming from. Of course, if somebody believes that others can be "inherently evil" then the death penalty would be appropriate for those people. I don't believe people can be inherently evil. Some people might sociopaths or psychopaths but a damaged mind does not make a person evil. They might commit evil acts and need to be removed from society for the protection of society as well as themselves; however, state-sanctioned murder via the death penalty is still murder. What really gets me about this argument is that I have found over the years that many of the most outspoken proponents of the death penalty are also pro gun, anti abortion and pro abortion provider killing.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 7:48:29 PM)
That is an interesting point erie, those who advocate the loudest for limiting the powers of government tend to also be the most adamant supporters of giving the government this ultimate power of life and death. There seems to be a disconnect here. This really does call for some deep thinking. Thanks. Are there any staunch conservatives here who would like to explain how they reconcile this apparent contradiction?

barelynangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 7:59:53 PM)
Laughs, grins, heather, while i am sure your arrogance leads you to believe you somehow did something in this thread -- you haven't. My position isn't changed and neither are many others on either side. The fact you actually expected this thread to be something that changes opinions shows your naivity. When you decide to stop putting words in my mouth and actually discuss YOUR position, and leave me to discuss MINE, i may find myself discussing with you. But your attempt to put me on the defense by putting words in my mouth you believe i will have to defend and if i don't i somehow agree with you by ommission is not impressive. I work in law Heather, i deal with concepts you are trying to use here daily. You will find very quickly that discussions boards like this mean nothing other than throwing around ideas. Here will this help -- Heather, you are right, you will always be right, and well gee, i need to change my position. Feel better? The thing you don't get heather and you should actually be gld about this -- i really don't care if the death penalty stays or goes. I believe in it period. I don't lobby for it and i don't lobby against it. I have the ear of "the people who matter" and all i would have to do is begin lobbying if i really cared. You have taken my points and have tried so desperately to make them moot you have only fucked yourself because in the end --- MY OPINION never was meant to be a serious opinion. If i really wanted it to be on this subject -- i sure the fuck wouldn't be wasting my time on here discussing it. So, you are absolutely right Heather, whatever you believe i said is right. Whatever beliefs and ideas you want to say i have said and believe -- okay. I can afford to give this to you Heather, why? Because you don't matter. lol be well Heather, i hope you find satisfaction in your "discussion" here. angel

BamaD -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 8:48:13 PM)
quote: ( I and most of the people I know are pro death penalty pro gun anti abortion and everyone I know considers killing abortion doctors to be murder.

erieangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 9:36:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather That is an interesting point erie, those who advocate the loudest for limiting the powers of government tend to also be the most adamant supporters of giving the government this ultimate power of life and death. There seems to be a disconnect here. This really does call for some deep thinking. Thanks. Are there any staunch conservatives here who would like to explain how they reconcile this apparent contradiction? They also tend to be the ones most vocal about going into everybody's bedrooms and legislating what we can and can not do as adults.

Kirata -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 9:40:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel state-sanctioned murder via the death penalty is still murder. What is and is not murder is defined by law. Period. If you don't think executions should be legal, fine. Calling them "murder" is theatrical nonsense. K.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 9:52:02 PM)
quote: Laughs, grins, heather, while i am sure your arrogance leads you to believe you somehow did something in this thread -- you haven't. Oh but I have. I have done basically what I started out to do, I have learned. I have examined one moral code, and found it wanting. This is why I said i was not going to debate the issue with you further. I am not trying to convince you, I never set out to do that. I am trying to reconcile, in my own mind, what you have presented with the problems I see in that in that position. I have learned a good bit, I have considered what I have learned and from that formed some new opinions, and strengthened some existing ones. I think you will agree, that's not a bad thing to achieve from an evening spent on the internet. I have enjoyed this discussion, honestly, I'm not being sarcastic. I'm not completely decided on this issue, to be honest, living in Canada it doesn't seem like a very pressing issue. However, one of the stated ultimate aims of our present governing party is to bring CP back to Canada. Therefore, I think its definitely time I did set about making up my mind. I make no bones about leaning heavily to the anti side, it is the one I am most sympathetic to, and the one that has, to my mind, the better arguments. I now lean a little further that way is all.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 9:54:22 PM)
quote: I and most of the people I know are pro death penalty pro gun anti abortion and everyone I know considers killing abortion doctors to be murder. I would have thought that to be the case. I am not at all surprised to hear it, but I am glad to have my feelings confirmed.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Mental Health (7/19/2011 10:03:52 PM)
This has been a fascinating thread. We haven't had the death penalty in Michigan for many years, honestly it's not something I ever think about. People often live foryears on death row, thanks to the convoluted and lengthy appeals process. The whole exercise is made pointless. If it came to a vote, I would vote against it. Useful to know that much!

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