RE: Mental Health (Full Version)

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LillyBoPeep -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 5:03:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It is not fair to characterize supporters of capital punishment as having a strong "emotional attachment" to the idea, as if it was a view devoid of reason.


agreed -- i don't like that. regardless of my opinions on c.p., it always irritates me when one side tries to label the other as being "emotional," as if that means there's no reasoning there at all, or that their viewpoint is somehow less valid. people who reason their way to different conclusions aren't "bad reasoners," they're just different.
men use this against women all the time, too. it rubs me the wrong way there, and here.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 5:33:24 AM)

Great post Kirata. I would also add that one of the reasons CP is so expensive is because of the multiple rights to appeal. If it were just a matter of economics, those could be eliminated. I don't think anyone is advocating that.



PeonForHer -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 5:38:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It is condescending, at best, to characterize supporters of capital punishment as people with a strong "emotional attachment" to an idea that is merely "emotionally satisfying in the short term," as if it was a view devoid of reason or sufficient consideration.


I shall relish your calling anyone else 'condescending' for a long time to come, Kirata. [:D] Incidentally, re such condescension, your earlier comment that "What is and is not murder is defined by law. Period. If you don't think executions should be legal, fine. Calling them "murder" is theatrical nonsense" - fits perfectly. The subject was dealt with earlier: "murder" is an entirely applicable word when we are talking morally, rather than legally. (To say otherwise is to imply that 'if the state kills, it can't be murder - it is merely "consequence [as someone put it]"'. So, presumably, the Nazis didn't murder Jews, then - their deaths can only be called the 'consequence' of their being Jews?)

OK, I'll assume that support for capital punishment is primarily to do with reason and not emotional satisfaction, like that of the simple desire for vengeance . . . .

I've been struggling to find good reasons for the maintenance of capital punishment. It seems to me that the key questions are a) Is it ethically superior to imprisonment, b) Is it good for society - does it increase the general social well-being and reduce overall levels of violence? and c) Is it economically the more viable option?

We've all discussed a) at some length. But I've been searching around for the facts and figures . . . and what I've found so far doesn't seem to support a 'yes' for either b) or c). However, I have found a lot of unexamined assumptions being replayed, over and again (for instance, that cp is cheaper than long-term imprisonment and that it acts as a deterrent).

I mean, the bottom line is this: I get the general impression that in the USA, especially, the subject isn't even really discussed with regards to b) and c) above. There seems to be so little research on something that seems so important. Why is this? I'm afraid it does seem that an awful lot of faith - perhaps blind faith - is put in CP.

Or perhaps my impression, as an outsider, is wrong? There is evidence that I don't know about?



PeonForHer -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 5:39:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Great post Kirata. I would also add that one of the reasons CP is so expensive is because of the multiple rights to appeal. If it were just a matter of economics, those could be eliminated. I don't think anyone is advocating that.


Apparently, they can't be eliminated all that easily at all. My impression is that you keep coming up against the Constitution over there. Very awkward.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 5:52:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Great post Kirata. I would also add that one of the reasons CP is so expensive is because of the multiple rights to appeal. If it were just a matter of economics, those could be eliminated. I don't think anyone is advocating that.


Apparently, they can't be eliminated all that easily at all. My impression is that you keep coming up against the Constitution over there. Very awkward.


Exactly. Because it isn't just a matter of economics. The Constitution does not specify to the letter the exact process by the way. That process has evolved statutorily and through case law, over time. In any case, I certainly believe that the process is what makes the whole thing tenable. So, it isn't just about money



PeonForHer -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 5:54:37 AM)

FR

Sorry, double post.



PeonForHer -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 5:57:34 AM)



FR

This is so weird, to me, as an outsider:

"The United States is the only Western democracy that allows capital punishment, and the sentence has widespread popular and political support. In a 1997 Time magazine poll, 74 percent of those surveyed said they favor capital punishment for persons convicted of serious crimes. This number, though, masks the conflicted attitudes Americans have toward the death penalty. The same poll reveals that when Americans are asked whether they think vengeance is a legitimate reason to execute a murderer, 60 percent do not. Additionally, a slight majority (52 percent to 45 percent) do not believe the death penalty deters crime. Most Americans may want killers executed, but a majority are uncomfortable with the two primary reasons for capital punishment—vengeance and deterrence."

. . . I have to say, that doesn't look reasonable. The evidence I've found so far says that CP isn't the cheap option, that a majority of Americans don't think it's good to do it out of vengeance, and they also don't think it's a deterrent.

What's happening here? If not the aforementioned reasons, what *are* the reasons why CP gets such a big majority of support in the USA?



ETA source. Bad me! http://www.enotes.com/does-capital-article



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:00:54 AM)

We are jaded and this is a violent country.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:03:59 AM)

It is rather puzzling isn't it? Especially if you then look at the statistics and the states who do have CP tend to also have the highest rate of murders, so it's the expensive solution, it's not stopping anybody from killing somebody else, where's the point really?

(Obviously discounting all the people who just want to get into prison because apparently they get 60" plasma screens, superb food and those snazzy prison uniforms, cells and toilets they have to share, love their lack of privacy and many other things that do not have the slightest connections with reality.)



Kirata -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:06:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I shall relish your calling anyone else 'condescending' for a long time to come, Kirata...

The subject was dealt with earlier: "murder" is an entirely applicable word when we are talking morally, rather than legally. (To say otherwise is to imply that 'if the state kills, it can't be murder - it is merely "consequence [as someone put it]"'. So, presumably, the Nazis didn't murder Jews, then - their deaths can only be called the 'consequence' of their being Jews?)

Well I'm certainly pleased you enjoyed that. But the only applicable non-legal definition of murder is killing barbarously or wantonly. Which the Nazis surely did, but to draw an analogy between the Holocaust and a legally conducted execution of a criminal in the United States is beneath stupid, and an insult to Jews everywhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

b) Is it good for society - does it increase the general social well-being and reduce overall levels of violence?

The purpose of an execution is not to "reduce overall levels of violence" but to assure that a person who wrongfully kills another human being doesn't do it again, which I think one might reasonably suppose would tend to increase the general social well-being.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

c) Is it economically the more viable option?

Back to the economics of life and death, eh? I'd love to hear your views on health care.

K.



barelynangel -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:07:18 AM)

Thank you Kirata,

As i said before this society is very pro-defendant and very pro-inmate.  While 120 people may have been wrongly executed in 30 years, the number of victims of repeat offenders and people who get off on technicalities  are far larger than that.  But for many those victims don't count, its a oh i am sorry your so and so was killed BUT...

That's what i think is always wrong with the views of many with regard to the death penalty.  They want to make a huge deal out of 120 people in 30 years - and killing, but the 1000s of victims in the same amount of time from repeat offenders and technicalities releasers are brushed off as collateral damage.

angel



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:09:32 AM)

Just to throw another fact out here, I just read this on the Huffington post. Here is the link, I hope, although I have trouble copying things on my iPad. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/21/death-penalty-lethal-injectiondrug_n_812267.html
Just to summarize, though, the company that makes one of the components of the lethal injection cocktail is discontinuing production. Apparently, they were never too crazy about their product being used for lethal injections, and they are moving the production facility to Italy. The Italian government is requiring them to insure none of their products will be used for CP.
I must admit, most of the Americans I meet are either ambivalent or pro CP. I had no idea people from other countries felt so strongly about it. This discussion has been very enlightening.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:13:14 AM)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/21/death-penalty-lethal-injection-drug_n_812267.html

Trying again with the link



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:24:13 AM)

it actually does have connection to reality.
here's an article comparing prison food to school lunches -- http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/health/prison-food-vs-school-lunches-any-difference-2483371
here's an article about a man who robbed a bank in order to go to jail for medical care (which he is getting) -- http://beta.news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/man-robs-bank-medical-care-jail-143625999.html
my aforementioned article about the $77k used to by flat screen TVs for a prison in Mass (though supposedly not with taxpayer money)

some people really don't care about jail because it's easier than their lives on the outside.
http://criminology.blog.co.uk/2011/06/10/jail-yes-please-say-criminals-11293851/ (UK)
http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/4650310/Burglary-pair-say-life-better-in-prison (NZ)
so it's not just a US issue either. =p

capital punishment is obviously not a deterrent, but neither is jail for a lot of people.



PeonForHer -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:25:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
But the only non-legal definition of murder (aside from a flock of crows) is killing barbarously or wantonly. Which the Nazis surely did, but to draw an analogy between the Holocaust and a legally conducted execution of a criminal in the United States is beneath stupid, and an insult to Jews everywhere.


Murder, sense 2, WordWeb:

"Kill intentionally and with premeditation". E.g. "The mafia boss ordered his enemies murdered"

Now, do you think that no American in any governing role where he's been in the position to order an execution, could be compared in any way at all to a mafia boss?

I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter to me how much contempt you want to heap on my example of Nazi Germany, Kirata: the fact is that it held a state that sanctioned death as a 'consequence' of someone being a Jew. Clearly, people who wanted to do the moral thing in Nazi Germany could *not* simply hide behind the argument that 'it's not murder, because the State does it, and has made it legal. There are morals, and there's state and its laws, and the two are most definitely not the same thing. Nazi Germany is an example of why people should be clear on that, because once such a state comes into existence, it's usually too late to get clear on it.


quote:

ORIGINAL:
The purpose of an execution is not to "reduce overall levels of violence" but to assure that a person who wrongfully kills another human beings doesn't do it again, which I think one might reasonably suppose would tend to increase the general social well-being.


Yes. But that's the smallest of reasons, isn't it? You achieve the same effect by incarcerating them for life.


quote:

Back to the economics of life and death, eh? I'd love to hear your views on health care.


Public health care is another example of a thing that is the most ethical being also the thing that is the most economically efficient, so we've found here in the UK.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:29:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

J
I must admit, most of the Americans I meet are either ambivalent or pro CP. I had no idea people from other countries felt so strongly about it. This discussion has been very enlightening.


I think it depends very much, when I lived in the US, I didn't meet a lot of people who were pro CP, in fact most were very much against it, but most of them were in big cities and worked with a lot of European companies and had been to Europe themselves.

One thing that crossed my mind is, that the whole thing about the injections might be watering the issue down a lot, like sedating the person, putting them to sleep, etc. I'd say if you go for executing somebody, why make it look like it's not a serious thing? Apparently a guillotine is also quite quick and painless, cutting off the head, stopping blood supply, instant death, though it would be quite disturbing and horrible to watch - well, the result is the same isn't it? It reminds me a bit of people becoming quite insensitive to the conditions animals are kept in because they buy their meat in neat little packages in the supermarket, so they can completely seperate it in their minds from living animals.

If it's about executing somebody as painless as possible, well make it a beheading, no worries about the drug supply, possibly cheaper too and definitely more of a detergent - only then people can't fool themselves into thinking that it really "isn't that bad" and I bet the witnesses might actually change their minds.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:30:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL:
The purpose of an execution is not to "reduce overall levels of violence" but to assure that a person who wrongfully kills another human beings doesn't do it again, which I think one might reasonably suppose would tend to increase the general social well-being.


Yes. But that's the smallest of reasons, isn't it? You achieve the same effect by incarcerating them for life.


not exactly; they kill each other, kill guards on occasion. you would have to keep them not only incarcerated, but incarcerated in solitude.



PeonForHer -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:39:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
not exactly; they kill each other, kill guards on occasion. you would have to keep them not only incarcerated, but incarcerated in solitude.


Reminds me of a potent argument here, before the death penalty was wiped: that if you know you're going to get hanged if you get caught, you have nothing to lose by killing anyone who tries to catch you. Anyone at all, in fact.

An example of 'violence breeds violence', in real social action.



tj4444 -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:40:14 AM)

[.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Mental Health (7/20/2011 6:47:56 AM)

Ladyc, from what I have heard, the lethal injection process is not as peaceful as it sounds. I know you are being facetious about the beheadings, but there have been some equally unpleasant methods used to carry out executions, and that apparently didn't make "the witnesses change their minds.". Like hangings and the electric chair for example. Most states went to lethal injections not to protect the sensibilities of the witnesses, but because it was viewed as less traumatic for the person being executed.
I live in a pretty big metropolitan area on the west coast, and I still have not run into very many people who are as vehemently anti CP as some of the posters here. Abortion, of course, is a different story. I have also spent time in Europe and don't remember the topic coming up. For whatever reason, this issue just doesn't seem to be on most americans' radar.



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