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A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:36:30 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Here is a concept I wanted to explore....

Language is very important. How we talk about a subject frames the way we think about it. In the national conversation we often hear leaders talk about how we should be grateful for having a job. We should feel lucky to sell our labor to our employer for a salary or an hourly wage. It is also framed in how certain people talk about the super wealthy and how they should be viewed as "job creators"... these so-called job creators are supposed to be handled with kid gloves, and we are supposed to be thankful they supposedly give us work by allowing them to skate on their end of the national debt. We even give citizenship to corporations because we believe that they deserve this somehow....

One thing I rarely hear is that we should be grateful to workers. We never hear much about how Middle America drives our economy. We never discuss what the worker does for the corporation, or how important they are to the economy.... In fact we seemly have little respect for workers in this country. We ask workers to suck it up and take the lion's share of the pain in this bad economy even though they were not the people who caused it. And how certain people want to ding the lower middle class by stripping their social security in the not-so-distant future...

If the super wealthy that have been rebranded "job creators" we so good at job creating, why don't we have more jobs? If the Bush era tax cuts were so successful in job creation, where are those jobs that were promised? Didn't the super wealthy already have their opportunity to prove they would generate jobs with less of a tax burden?

I am so tired of some people in this country thinking that we should be worshipful of the super rich, that questioning their shifting their burdens on to those who have the least is somehow owed them. That they shouldn't have to pony up and help pay for the place we are now in....



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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:41:16 AM   
specialbullneed


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Joined: 7/7/2011
Status: offline 		This attitude is why so many companies are outsourcing job opportunities to offshore labor....it is the employer who decides..not Obama...not labor..not the leftwing socialist who call themselves 'americans'...they are not....

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:42:42 AM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		EVERYONE is a "job creator." There's a need, you've got the solution--that's a market. Those who complain "I'm smart and talented but I can't find work" is either not as smart/talented as they imagined or are waiting for someone else to come along and solve their problems for them.

The "Job Creators" don't get any sympathy from me either. An established business that "can't function in this environment" has leaders who forgot everything they may have once learned about business. Markets change. Good business people are on top of this. The rest whine about the economy, government, poor labor force, etc.

Peter Drucker, 60 years ago, stressed that labor is a resource (vs. a cost drag). Good business leaders know this--and use it.

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:43:19 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Where is the gratitude of the super wealthy to be a part of America?

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:44:01 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Where is the gratitude of the poor to be part of America?

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:46:15 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		How exactly is it wrong to value the dignity and industry of actual labor?

I want to feed and clothe my family just like you want, and I work for it.
I want my kids to have a better life than I had, and I work for it.
I want to price my goods and services at an advantageous rate, just like you want, and I work for it.
I want an ability to advance myself, just like you want, and I work for it.
I want a bonus to retain my talents just like you want, and I work for it.
I want a house just like you want, and I work for it.
I want a cadillac in the driveway just like you want, and I work for it.
I want a lake cottage just like you want, and I work for it.

Is there something wrong with grabbing a large slice of the American dream?
When exactly did that become UnAmerican for labor, but not for owners??

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:48:22 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Here is a concept I wanted to explore....

Language is very important. How we talk about a subject frames the way we think about it. In the national conversation we often hear leaders talk about how we should be grateful for having a job. really? funny I dont hear that often from leaders of either partyWe should feel lucky to sell our labor to our employer for a salary or an hourly wage. dittoIt is also framed in how certain people talk about the super wealthy and how they should be viewed as "job creators"... these so-called job creators are supposed to be handled with kid gloves, and we are supposed to be thankful they supposedly give us work by allowing them to skate on their end of the national debt. If paying >75% of the taxes is "skating" then you have a point. Ooops.We even give citizenship to corporations because we believe that they deserve this somehow....


One thing I rarely hear is that we should be grateful to workers. Why should we hear it. Workers are owed no more gratitude than corporations. Everyone acts in their own self interest.We never hear much about how Middle America drives our economy. Total bullshit. You hear it almost every day.We never discuss what the worker does for the corporation, or how important they are to the economy... ditto. In fact we seemly have little respect for workers in this country. We ask workers to suck it up and take the lion's share of the pain in this bad economy even though they were not the people who caused it. more liesAnd how certain people want to ding the lower middle class by stripping their social security in the not-so-distant future... more lies

If the super wealthy that have been rebranded "job creators" we so good at job creating, why don't we have more jobs? because Obama fucked up and continues to fuck up, duhhhhhIf the Bush era tax cuts were so successful in job creation, where are those jobs that were promised? some are still there, some were lost due to the recession. There would be far fewer of them without the Bush tax cuts.Didn't the super wealthy already have their opportunity to prove they would generate jobs with less of a tax burden? And they consistently have

I am so tired of some people in this country thinking that we should be worshipful of the super rich, that questioning their shifting their burdens on to those who have the least is somehow owed them. That they shouldn't have to pony up and help pay for the place we are now in....

And anyone without blue colored glasses is tired of your repeating the lies of the left ad nauseum




It doesnt take much "exploring". [/thread]

FACT: The economy lost 267,000 jobs in the six quarters before the 2003 tax cuts. In the next six quarters, it added 307,000 jobs, followed by 5 million jobs in the next seven quarters.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/22/2011 12:00:42 PM >

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:49:48 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		ad nauseAm.  Nausea, like you.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:50:46 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

How exactly is it wrong to value the dignity and industry of actual labor?


Are you under the impression I disagree?

Smart businesses take care of their workers.

And the other stake-holders too. Anything less is a dying business.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/22/2011 11:51:29 AM >

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:52:51 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Where is the gratitude of the super wealthy to be a part of America?


Everyone from the poorest to the superwealthy should have that gratitude, and Id wager that a far greater percentage of the superwealthy do than the poor.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:52:56 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		No Tim, as usual; a FR to the Topic.  You just happened to be in the way, I am as lazy as I am profoundly correct.


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/22/2011 11:53:45 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 11:58:21 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

EVERYONE is a "job creator." There's a need, you've got the solution--that's a market. Those who complain "I'm smart and talented but I can't find work" is either not as smart/talented as they imagined or are waiting for someone else to come along and solve their problems for them.


I would agree, and I have created my own work, and was making a profit at my business within a year.... meaning I was in the black, and had already paid back my capital investment, plus....

But that does not mean that there isn't any reason to work for others and with others in a venture, or that the labor that is invested by the worker isn't valuable and unworthy of appreciation.


quote:

The "Job Creators" don't get any sympathy from me either. An established business that "can't function in this environment" has leaders who forgot everything they may have once learned about business. Markets change. Good business people are on top of this. The rest whine about the economy, government, poor labor force, etc.


Those who employ workers in large numbers have that workforce educated by the state. That education is something that they do not pay for, yet they employ people that have it. In other words, an educated workforce is a subsidy to business....

My larger point, which I do not think that you got it, is that the employ/employer relationship is symbiotic, and both rely on each other. If employers are not willing to be appreciative of their educated workforce and treat them as though they are just parts in a machine, then it has become a parasitic relationship.... especially when they are profiting more than their workers off the means of production, and dehumanizing them in the process...

quote:

Peter Drucker, 60 years ago, stressed that labor is a resource (vs. a cost drag). Good business leaders know this--and use it.



Too bad the economy exists to enrich the few, and the rest are just resources instead of people. This comes down to the basic values or ethical foundation... does an economy exist for society, or for the individual

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 12:00:28 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Where is the gratitude of the super wealthy to be a part of America?


Everyone from the poorest to the superwealthy should have that gratitude, and Id wager that a far greater percentage of the superwealthy do than the poor.


You would lose that wager...

The working poor in ethnographic study after ethnographic study, are shown to adopt the values of the wealthy in relation to work. They find their own dignity in being able to work a job and to keep it, and to contribute.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 12:02:07 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Anatole France

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 12:02:44 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Where is the gratitude of the super wealthy to be a part of America?


Everyone from the poorest to the superwealthy should have that gratitude, and Id wager that a far greater percentage of the superwealthy do than the poor.


You would lose that wager...

The working poor in ethnographic study after ethnographic study, are shown to adopt the values of the wealthy in relation to work. They find their own dignity in being able to work a job and to keep it, and to contribute.




Perhaps I would, but your statement certainly doesnt refute mine. "Dignity in being able to work a job" is not the same as "Gratitude to be a part of America". Show me THAT ethnographic study.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 12:03:47 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps I would, but your statement certainly doesnt refute mine. "Dignity in being able to work a job" is not the same as "Gratitude to be a part of America". Show me THAT ethnographic study.


Get back to me when you read it

http://www.amazon.com/No-Shame-My-Game-Working/dp/0375703799

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 12:08:02 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		You show yours.  You first claimed it of the superwealthy, while all the while you have been kvetching about doctors moving to puerto rico, the corporations moving overseas, ad nauseam, because of the bad nasty antibusiness policies that are only perpetrated by democrats.

Seems like a sorry, whining, disgruntled and unamerican lot when ALEC isn't modeling business rip-off legislation to enact in state legislatures.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 12:08:49 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I am as lazy as I am profoundly correct.


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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 12:08:59 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Where is the gratitude of the poor to be part of America?



I posted this book for Willbe.. perhaps you could read it too, it would show you the working poor are already grateful... and they are more likely to join the military, too

http://www.amazon.com/No-Shame-My-Game-Working/dp/0375703799

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: A Question About Being Labor versus Being an Owner - 7/22/2011 12:11:16 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Wilbur hasn't seen gratitude since the beatific adoration of his buddies from his patching up claymore mine gutshots in Vietnam.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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