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frustrated with President Obama - 7/23/2011 11:12:15 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Many Americans are outraged at the idea of cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid with the rich continuing to be taxed at low rates. Yet this unfairness is all Republicans are willing to agree to. Why won't Obama increase the debt ceiling on his own and take a hard stand against cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid? Doesn't the president realize doing that would ensure his re-election? Doesn't Obama know that Democrats are likely to regain control of the House at the next congressional election because of Republican leaders' obsession with making cuts to the big three? All he has to do is invoke the fourteenth amendment, raise the debt ceiling without congress, and hold off on any long term changes until Democrats are back in control. Then he could have a deal that's more fair to the poor and middle class he keeps saying he wants to protect. Why won't he do that? WTF is wrong with him?

< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 7/23/2011 11:16:27 PM >

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/23/2011 11:16:39 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		He cant do it. [/thread]

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/23/2011 11:34:19 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		He CAN do it. I don't think Bill Clinton would have advised Obama to raise the debt ceiling without congress if it couldn't be done. If the rich were creating tons of decent paying jobs in the US, I would agree with keeping their taxes low but they're not. Instead, Americans are promised jobs, then told they aren't "entitled" to jobs.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/23/2011 11:35:11 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Many Americans are outraged at the idea of cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid with the rich continuing to be taxed at low rates. Yet this unfairness is all Republicans are willing to agree to. Why won't Obama increase the debt ceiling on his own and take a hard stand against cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid? Doesn't the president realize doing that would ensure his re-election? Doesn't Obama know that Democrats are likely to regain control of the House at the next congressional election because of Republican leaders' obsession with making cuts to the big three? All he has to do is invoke the fourteenth amendment, raise the debt ceiling without congress, and hold off on any long term changes until Democrats are back in control. Then he could have a deal that's more fair to the poor and middle class he keeps saying he wants to protect. Why won't he do that? WTF is wrong with him?


Mainly becuase (and shocking to all the conservatives) that President wants what is best for America. He's willing to make a tough decision to get a comprise. What he is doing is calling the Republican Bluff. The Democrats have come half way on the comprise table (willing to cut $400-600 Billion, or, $4-6 Trillion over ten years). But that deal only goes through if Republican reliquish 78% of the Bush Era Tax Cuts, cut some loopholes and generally play ball with the Democrats. Essentially, the Republicans made a pledge a month or more ago to one 'Grover Norquist' and his 'Americans for Tax Reform' not to raise the taxes a penny. As such, they can not come the OTHER half way on the comprise table. Instead, they are expecting (foolishly) or demanding (totally idiotic) that Democrats not only come half way, but 90% of the way to their side. The only sort of people that make deals like that, are terrorists demanding ransom 'or else'.

Also, its the House NOT the Senate or the White House that creates the bills to be voted on. Sadly, many conservatives do not seem to understand that in order for a bill to be past, it must be 'ok-d' by the House, Senate, AND the White House. They either are stupid or foolish to believe that if the Republicans pass a bill, it should 'sail' on through. They've tried it a few times, and FAILED a few times. Mostly because they forgot the OTHER two groups that have to 'sign off on the bill'.

The President has consulted with his constitutional lawyers and found that taking the action you are referring regarding the 14th Amendment is not feasible. Republicans are WISHING he does, for they wish NOT to be the ones blamed for being stupid and incomphent if this whole thing buckles. As it stands now, the President is blamed least. The Republicans are getting the lion's share of blame....and rightly so!

What is the simple solution (since the question & answer are super complex...)? To acknowledge this is a 'Revenue' / 'Budget Spending' Problem. It'll take both spending cuts AND tax increases to solve it. Anyone that doesnt understand that is a total fucking idiot. And as I've already pointed out, Republicans are taking their orders from a man that's not even a resident of their state OVER the wishs of their constituents.

Hopefully those independents will keep that in mind when they go to the voting booth.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 12:06:57 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		If Obama was told by constitutional attorneys that Clinton's advice isn't feasible, I can understand why he hasn't done that. I still can't understand why he thinks a long term deal with Republicans is best for the US. Obviously, a long term deal after Democrats regain control of the House is best for the US. If he agrees to something long term before that, Democrats won't be able to change it when they regain control.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 12:11:03 AM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Many Americans are outraged at the idea of cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid with the rich continuing to be taxed at low rates. Yet this unfairness is all Republicans are willing to agree to. Why won't Obama increase the debt ceiling on his own and take a hard stand against cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid? Doesn't the president realize doing that would ensure his re-election? Doesn't Obama know that Democrats are likely to regain control of the House at the next congressional election because of Republican leaders' obsession with making cuts to the big three? All he has to do is invoke the fourteenth amendment, raise the debt ceiling without congress, and hold off on any long term changes until Democrats are back in control. Then he could have a deal that's more fair to the poor and middle class he keeps saying he wants to protect. Why won't he do that? WTF is wrong with him?


I completely agree. It's pathetic.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 12:32:40 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		All he has to do is make more cuts, half the State Dept, end Energy, Education, EPA. End "foreign aid."
What seems to be his problem?
Hell he can cut the military too!
You'd have to talk to him personally to get any answers.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 3:37:36 AM   
Fellow


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quote:

What seems to be his problem?


The Republicans and the democratic process in general, of course. His grand "clever" plan is to run huge deficits and pass the debt burden on to the next president.   Any move towards solving the problem would ensure he will not get re-elected. It would hurt his corporate donors or (and) the poor and people vote their (short-term) interest. Emperor's move "defiantbadgirl" supports is also very risky option. I am sure they are seriously considering this.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 5:51:17 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Obama is the president, not a dictator. Taxing the rich will more won't solve the 14 trillion dollar dept problem we have in this country. Cuts will have to be made and nothing should be off the table including the big three. The problem isn't on the revenue side, it's on the spending side.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 6:07:31 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

Taxing the rich will more won't solve the 14 trillion dollar dept problem we have in this country.


Rolling back the Bush Tax Cuts ( remember when we were told they were temporary??? If they're permanent, then the Bush Lied about them being temporary... ) would eliminate the deficit, and then we could use the surplus to pay down the debt.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 6:42:00 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

He cant do it.


Not exactly.  There is a question in terms of whether he can or not.  Asserting that he can, or that he can't, is likely more of a negotiating pressure ploy at this point than anything else.  If he did, it would be met with a court challenge, and then the whole mess would end up in the courts for years.  I'm not savvy enough to know this for sure, but I assume that the unilateral raising would be in effect during the appeals and counterappeals.

Ignoring the legality of it for a moment, if Obama were to simply assert supreme authority here and essentially tell the Legislative branch that they're useless, he's be striking a massive blow to the US government system which was carefully crafted to have checks and balances.  If he got away with it, we might as well save some money and shut down the Senate and Congress.  In theory, they are supposed to be taking all the action, and the President merely serve as a yes-or-no gate for their actions, although of course the office has grown considerably since originally created.  Despite all the smack the conservatives say about Obama not living to being a Constitutional scholar, I believe that he'd never want to be known as the President that gutted the system.

And politically, the spectacle of Washington not even being able to pass a budget is ridiculous.

< Message edited by DarkSteven -- 7/24/2011 7:16:47 AM >

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 6:42:25 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

He cant do it. [/thread]

He can do anything he wants as so eloquently demonstrated by the last admin. First if he needs it and I am not sure he does...get the atty. general to write a 'legal' memo as Gonzales did that 'confirms' that not only the 14th amend. but as CiC at a time of war...he is empowered to take ALL steps as necessary to protect the war effort and the country's future ability to carry out its 'defense' responsibilities.

He directs the Dept. of Treas. to pay all obligations and to take such steps as necessary (borrowing) as required to continue such funding as the executive may direct. If we can 'enhanced interrogation' we can have 'emergency wartime funding.'

Furthermore, that's not nearly as convoluted if it is at all...when compared to the 'torture' memo.


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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 7:00:52 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

All he has to do is make more cuts, half the State Dept, end Energy, Education, EPA. End "foreign aid."
What seems to be his problem?
Hell he can cut the military too!
You'd have to talk to him personally to get any answers.


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Obama is the president, not a dictator. Taxing the rich will more won't solve the 14 trillion dollar dept problem we have in this country. Cuts will have to be made and nothing should be off the table including the big three. The problem isn't on the revenue side, it's on the spending side.

Cutting yours or popeye's favorite targets won't balance it either.

Cuts will have to be made, yes, and to the big three, yes. That STILL won't balance the budget, let alone start to address the debt. It's going to take raising taxes as well. On everyone, yes, including the wealthy.

You could eliminate ALL discretionary spending and eliminate medicare completely---and you STILL wouldn't have a balanced budget. You could eliminate all discretionary spending and completely cut social security--and you STILL wouldn't have a balanced budget. You could slash defense, social security, medicare, medicaid, and discretionary spending by a third--and you STILL wouldn't have a balanced budget. You could eliminate all discretionary spending and slash defense spending 80%--and you STILL wouldn't have a balanced budget.

Spending cuts alone are NOT going to do this! The House is in Disneyland. Spending cuts alone, even as severely overstated as above, as NOT going to balance the budget. Plans to rely on cuts alone, even severe ones, are going to STILL leave us with climbing debt, year after year after year.

Argue about what KIND of revenue increases, which taxes, on what, on whom, fine. Eliminate the Bush tax cuts--for everyone. Add a VAT. Raise payroll taxes a half a percent (after eliminating the one year cut). Because without revenue increases---and not the fantasy "Oh we'll just grow our way out of a $1.27 trillion deficit" (let alone reducing the debt)--debt will continue to grow, year after year, and interest rates and inflation in its wake.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 7:13:53 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Raising taxes on everyone in this economy will not sit well. If it has to be done then Obama should be honest and take the lead. His 'millionares and billionares' class warfare speeches must end.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 7:34:22 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Obama is the president, not a dictator. Taxing the rich will more won't solve the 14 trillion dollar dept problem we have in this country. Cuts will have to be made and nothing should be off the table including the big three. The problem isn't on the revenue side, it's on the spending side.

Taxing the rich as submitted is only letting the Bush cuts expire. So if we are going to hit up Grandma for an extra few bucks out of her $10,000/yr, we can sure as hell hit up the investor class for a few more too. Time to pay the bills run up and not paid for...for 30 years.

As for the spending side, it becomes important but only in the context of the current and very specious argument when after all repub pres. going back to Reagan had no problem cutting taxes while increasing spending. Only Clinton didn't...he raised taxes. So while yes, there needs to be cuts but that also MUST include the $100 billion at least in corporate welfare that even the CATO Inst. says must go for example in addition to higher rates on the high.

'Tax expenditures' which is what the various tax provisions are for business and other deductions and so-called incentives are $1 trillion...every year.

Oh but to end those tax expenditures for you is a cut in spending, eliminating them for business is called a tax increase. See how easy it is to use words to suggest or course of action and one that obviously favors one participant over another, in this case businesses and the investor class ?

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 7:35:02 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

The Republicans and the democratic process in general, of course. His grand "clever" plan is to run huge deficits and pass the debt burden on to the next president.   Any move towards solving the problem would ensure he will not get re-elected.


So let me get this straight.

His not solving the problem is going to get him re-elected?


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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 7:39:33 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Raising taxes on everyone in this economy will not sit well. If it has to be done then Obama should be honest and take the lead. His 'millionares and billionares' class warfare speeches must end.

Yes, because the only class warfare being conducted in this country is that of the warfare being brought down on the poor and they are being routed.

As Buffet has informed, if there is class warfare in this country...his class is winning. I say...winning big.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 7:42:23 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Raising taxes on everyone in this economy will not sit well. If it has to be done then Obama should be honest and take the lead. His 'millionares and billionares' class warfare speeches must end.

Not only will it not sit well, but it also will slow the economy.

I agree, Obama should be honest and take the lead...at least he's talking about taxes.

But House leadership needs to be honest and take the lead as well. They can add, and they know spending cuts alone aren't going to do this, and they know kicking it ten years down the road isn't going to work any better than the last 30 years. So in that regard, without advocating class warfare, Obama is ahead in reality by at least proposing a tax increase. It's political, yes--polls show that even a majority of Republicans support raising taxes on the wealthy.

All Bush era tax cuts should end, however. What did you do with all the tax cuts you got since 1981? Most people didn't even notice, and they'd hardly notice the change now. What HAS risen quickly are state and local taxes...and that's a different matter. Raise their federal taxes. Put the FICA deduction back where it was...and raise it half a point. Eliminate the mortgage deduction--poorer folk still have a generous standard deduction, and the mortgage deduction mainly subsidies wealthier housing. Add a modest VAT--most people won't even notice, and those who can afford to purchase a lot will pay more, making this in part a de facto luxury tax. None of this is horrible--it's less than we were paying 30 years ago, and essentially what we were paying ten years ago, with modest changes. And yes, absolutely, include serious spending cuts. Start with defense--they're forced to buy things they don't even want! Reform entitlement spending. Set this on a clear path forward, so business can relax and make long term plans, a benefit that may well offset the negative impact of the tax increases.

Most important thing--we'd be back on a sustainable path, and that will benefit the entire nation and its economy.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 7:44:19 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Raising taxes on everyone in this economy will not sit well. If it has to be done then Obama should be honest and take the lead. His 'millionares and billionares' class warfare speeches must end.

Reagan had no problem. He not only raised payroll taxes, I think twice bit also raised the capital gains tax...on of the best moves and remains the best ways to create jobs. I am betting the ideologues here couldn't tell me why even when the numbers are there.

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RE: frustrated with President Obama - 7/24/2011 7:51:11 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

But House leadership needs to be honest and take the lead as well.


Boehner needs to stop throwing his little bitch tantrums, grow the fuck up, and get to work PASSING LEGISLATION for the President's signature or veto.

Everything else is bullshit...

Or course, it looks like that's the order of the day, with the anarchist terrorists holding the economy for hostage as they try to destroy the government.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/24/2011 7:52:04 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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