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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 10:56:04 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I don't know if the OP is coming back or not.  Yes, it's nice when they do, but this may be one of the times when that won't happen.  However, I'm wondering a bit if our gender bias is showing a bit.  My stance on there being a lack of Dominance in the situation (from the little bit of background that was given here) honestly hasn't changed.  Yet, if we had a female come to these boards with the following:

".......when we had a ad argument (s)he brought violence into an argument....."

We would have had a much different reaction.  Had this poster been female, rather than male, I don't think there would have been the same reaction to the relationship ending over this incident.  If the OP had been female, and violence came from a male, we'd have told the OP to leave and not look back.  Taking the post just on face value, the guy picked the woman up and put her on the counter when she became violent, but just because he was able to physically control the behavior doesn't excuse it, nor does it necessarily mean that he would always be able to control such violence in such a way in the future.

I get that we're on a BDSM site, but it is My personal opinion that violence doesn't belong in arguments in a relationship.  Maybe I'm just hung up on that particular word, but had the OP been female, we'd have been advising the OP to get away from a potential abuser.  Not giving grief that the OP left the relationship.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 11:11:03 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I'm getting from your posts, you're saying if I were single I would be submissive to you, simply because you're dominant.

Not exactly. You would be submissive to me IF several conditions were true.

  • I am actually more dominant than you... a situation which has not been demonstrated at this point.
  • You and I got into a situation where that mattered -- highly unlikely in a casual setting/encounter.
  • I cared enough about it all to actually exercise that dominance -- at whatever price may be attached.

But if all those conditions are met then yes, I think you would be submissive to me because I'm more dominant than you. Really though, all I'm saying in the end is that if I'm capable of winning and I want to win (at the price tag attached) then I will win. It's not that mysterious. Think about it this way. When the two bull seals go at it to see who's going to get the harem, they are not asking for each other's consent. The other one doesn't need to agree to anything. There's no "submit". There's only win & lose... lose possibly meaning "die".

And yes, I do understand exactly as SimplyMicheal said that this is social dominance not BDSM dominance. It's not the same thing.

Edited to add Carol's comments
Carol says that my "win/lose" terminology is misleading because it jumps right to the end of the story.. and end we'd all like to not get to. It is rare that Carol and I get that far... very, very rare. For the most part when she submits she's not losing even as I'm "getting my way". Her thought was that another way to look at it is "If I'm actually socially dominant then I will have a command presence and yes, pretty much all other humans around me will respond to that."

And please note in all of this that I'm not claiming to be all that and more. I may or may not have "command presence". It may or may not be more than you or some other person. I have absolutely known people more dominant than myself. I tend to bypass such questions under the theory that "If it ever gets tested then we'll know the answer and before then the answer doesn't matter."

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 7/25/2011 11:18:59 AM >

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 11:31:29 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

OK, you have a Dom, and you have two fucking subs. the dom approaches them both, first sub gets all giddy and needs fresh fucking panties, the second one thinks she wants a restraining order. so is the guy a dom or a fucking creeper. he hasn't changed, he's the exact same fuck, but one sub sees dominance, and the other doesn't. so he doesn't have it, it's not in him, it's in the fucking sub's head. that's where "his" dominance is.

which is my point, so much of what doms preach is simply based on the wrong fucking interpretation of what is actually going on. the vast majority of  d/s happens exclusively in the sub's head and has little or fuck all to do with the dom. take the non-maso who endures pain as an example. ok, he gets off on it, he's a right fucking yummy sadist, but if she doesn't get off on it at some level, he's stuck surfing bdsmlibrary.com with a box of fucking kleenex by his side.

say you're a dominant person, (male or female, makes no fucking diff). you have the urge to be dominant in your everyday life. if, and this is a big fucking if, you're lucky, you might have a job or the wealth that allows you to indulge that urge. but if not, well to fucking bad, sucks to be you, right?

now take a person with a submissive nature. he or she can submit at will, there's fuck all that can stop them. people will not submit willy nilly to a dominant personality, but they will walk all the fuck over a submissive one if they aren't prevented from doing so.

that's why each of us subs/switches has a long list of d-types we think are assholes, and only a short list of subs we think the same about, and those subs we generally don't fucking consider really subs. the asshole d-types are just that because they try to dominate when they have no fucking dominance.

i'm heather's dream domme, and other people's crazy abusive psycho bitch. i fucking ooze dominance to her, and utterly lack it to them. wtff? what gives?

e2a
quote:

It's pretty much the old "I'm a sub but not your sub" idea.
yeah, but it goes a little deeper, think of the inverse: "you're a dom but your not my dom". well, what that really fucking means is "you THINK your a dom, but your not really".

how many times have you heard the fucking phrase "self-proclaimed dom"? and how many times have you heard the phrase "self-proclaimed sub"?

bet the first fucking outnumbers the second by several magnitudes.



Poppycock !! Utter and total poppycock !!

Dominance is not all in someone's head. I see dominance and submission as personality traits placed on opposite ends of a spectrum. You have the most dominant set of traits on one end, and the most submissive on the other. Most of us have traits that lie somewhere in between, and many of us slide up and down that continuum.

This entire analogy  is further complicated by other often conflicting issues, in that a dominant or a submissive is not merely a compendium of personality traits. Plus people are not necessarily dominant and submissive in all areas of their life.

However, you can look at someone's personality as a whole, and make conjectures about their dominance (or submission) and most especially, how that relates to your own self.

I will take LadyP as an example, since most know her and she is a remarkable good sport.

In my mind at least, LadyP is very dominant female. Her strength of character and personality are at least on par if not exceeding my own. (I don't run across that very often). Sorry, in my opinion, her dominance is not in my head. I'm willing to speculate few run into LadyP and think: "Well shit, what a wuss."

Now, does Lady P have some softer more submissive sides to her character? I am quiet sure she does, she appears to be a fairly well rounded person.

My point being, I think most of us can agree, LadyP gives off a very dominant vibe. Now, does that mean she can dominant everyone who agrees to that statement?

Hell no. There is that unmistakeable yet impossible to explain thing we call chemistry. And it's there, or it isn't. Without it, all the dominance in the world is not going to engender an appropriately submissive response.

There have been many studies done about this chemistry, b/c let's face it, it's fascinating. Certain physical changes occur when people are attracted to one another: eyes dilating, nostrils flaring, blood pressure increase, etc.

The chemical response to a particular individual we call attraction is not in your head. How the individual processes that attraction is in your head. B/c people get together, not just based on strong physical attraction, but on the ways their personalities mesh and compliment one another, and on what each perceive as their possible potential.

So Hannah came close. Her statement wasn't really total poppycock, I just like the word.






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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 11:37:16 AM   
DecadentDesire


Posts: 234
Joined: 6/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
And yes, I do understand exactly as SimplyMicheal said that this is social dominance not BDSM dominance. It's not the same thing.


I'm glad that you see it that way, because this is a subject that is, in my opinion, far removed from the identities that we use here.

I also don't think its as cut and drive as you describe it. Socially, submission and dominance are constantly in flux, changing based on context, social situation, the individual we are interacting with, and our particular needs at the time, the big one being the need for survival.

Hence, you can't apply the label of "dominant" or "submissive" to an individual with any degree of authority, because it's tied to the particular instance in which you are making the judgement.

For example, if I were to get pulled over by a police officer, our unique social identities and my desire to not get a ticket, would make me submissive to him. For that social interaction, my behavior would be that of compliance and adhering to his social authority.

On the flip side, I could meet the same police officer when he was off duty in a different social context, such as a bar or a barbeque. In that context, his social identity as a police officer is no longer relevant and I am no longer motivated by avoiding a speeding ticket, so my behavior would reflect a degree of confidence and assertiveness that was not present in the previous situation. He, now on equal footing with me as "another guy having a beer", could very easily respond well to my personality traits, thus allowing for a social dynamic to develop of me leading and him following.

In summary, my social position as "dominant" or "submissive" is constantly in flux. The same applies to anyone who views the world in pragmatic, and not idealistic, terms. You cannot survive and prosper if your not willing to follow in one context and then take the lead in another. However, these fluxuations have absolutely no impact on my identity as a "dominant" in terms of my intimate relationships with women, because this is being used to express my intimate desires for a structured authority dynamic.


< Message edited by DecadentDesire -- 7/25/2011 11:41:22 AM >

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 11:49:51 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I didn't bother reading the responses because most of your are not worthy of my time.

op...She was a nutbag and you chose to get involved with her....Big Mistake.

she pushed you? OMFG! how fucking violent!

Even if normal, people have the capability to get angry which is definitely going to bypass any preconceived Dom/sub relationship.

I really can't stand some of you posters who think that through uber dominance that you can control every possible outcome, emotion or conversation...And further, who in the fuck really wants to?

So many Dom's, men specifically, don't want an a partner they require a pet.

Some times people act like asshats. If I acted as such and a woman gave me a "push" a probably wouldn't necessarily think much about it especially if I was in the wrong. If she took a swing then we might have a problem

Doms can be wrong, yanno. It lasted happened to me back in the Fall of aught 4. I had the date commemorated with a tattoo.

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 11:55:44 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

The guy didn't lose control... he never *had* control.



BINGO!!! Perfectly stated.



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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 12:06:31 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I didn't bother reading the responses because most of your are not worthy of my time.


If you HAD read, you would have seen that the OP is long gone and you are left talking to we unworthy ones.

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 12:28:15 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

...the OP is long gone and you are left talking to we unworthy ones.



Hey... Hey... Hey... I'l have you know I'm not "unworthy" -- just unruly!!!



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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 12:30:25 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

So many Dom's... don't want an a partner they require a pet.



Some prefer being the "pet" to the "partner".



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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 12:36:09 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		fuck! My precious words have fallen upon you worthless ho's and pets.

here is the dealio, you twits. He might have had control, but who can control every possible situation? Who even wants to?

You will not cry at the end of "Old Yeller!" I command it!

Get out of town, you 'yatches.

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 12:48:14 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Some of this is actually getting more interesting that what the OP wrote.  Btw, CP, nope, didn't mind at all.  It was probably an effective example and since, due to numbers and the social expectations due to gender, it was probably a good idea to specifically make that example based on a female Dominant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire
I also don't think its as cut and drive as you describe it. Socially, submission and dominance are constantly in flux, changing based on context, social situation, the individual we are interacting with, and our particular needs at the time, the big one being the need for survival.

Hence, you can't apply the label of "dominant" or "submissive" to an individual with any degree of authority, because it's tied to the particular instance in which you are making the judgement.

Trimmed for brevity.

Something worth pointing out here.  It's actually not that often that I'll give someone a statement such as I don't see them as Dominant.  The fact that I've done it three times fairly recently is really much higher than My average.  Two of which (this thread is one of those examples) are cases where what has been written leans toward showing that it seems lacking that the other person in the relationship is not seeing the person as Dominant.  The third, which I am only mentioning because it still counts in the total of three, so far in his interactions on the boards, doesn't seem to strike anyone as Dominant.  He comes across as a whiny putz with no personal strength.  So, I've got two cases based specifically on a lack of Dominance in a relationship and one where we're talking about social Dominance. 

Now, people can think what they want about themselves and they certainly are doing that when they come here and check the D box on the profile.  Yet, when the person that you're interacting with in a relationship, or in the social situation the people, that you are dealing with do not see you as Dominant, there is no Dominance in that. 

I'm actually going to disagree with Hannah's earlier point.  From a social aspect, it does *not* require feeling submissive towards someone to recognize Dominance in someone else.  For example, I've met both Leadership and Michael.  I do see them both as Dominant.  It's not based on a 'more Domlier than thou' standpoint, fighting on the chain of who is stronger or weaker in personality, or anybody attempting to see who has the greater control.  I even might go so far as to say that, between the three of us, due to personal style and what have you, that we may not all even be the same kind of Dominant.  However, it's certainly there and I do see it on equal footing as My own.  Even if I was just basing My interactions with them alone, by passing the knowledge that they are in relationships where they have control, I would still see them that way because of their personality.

The example of a person respecting the authority of a cop when they get pulled over doesn't play into this for Me.  Any person who has genuine authority over another knows (or should know) and is able to respect those situations where they know they are not the ultimate authority on the planet. 


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 7/25/2011 12:49:26 PM >

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 12:51:41 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Hey Jeff,

Your clarification helped a little although I'm still not sure I fully agree, which is cool. But I think you missed something in your list of criteria - I (or whomever the subject may be) would have to want it and care enough to have it, too. Because without the desire in the submissive, you're not really dominating anyone, no matter how much you might want to. And I know at least for myself, I can't (won't) be manipulated into an overall position of submission with someone I don't want or care about that position with. I read between those lines too well.

Now of course this is all hypothetical anyway, but I do stand by my own position of someone elses dominance having to be *felt* by me in order to elicit a response of submission. It's just how I roll.

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 1:03:33 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Hi LadyPact,

I sort of get what you're saying, but I have to still personally relate to what Hannah said. At the risk of offending them (and I hope they'll see what I'm getting at and not take offense) I've met the same people you mentioned, and while sure I saw a dominant personality there, that does not mean I had a submissive inclination or decided they were more or less dominant in personality than myself. Nice guys to hang out in a room with? Absolutely. Strong personalities? Again yes. But unless a sense of submission came from me (or anyone else in the room) then you still have two men not actually dominating the submissive person in the room - even if they wanted to. It's just not a one way street like that.

Unless I misunderstood you? I'm on my damn iPhone and can't go back and check without possibly losing this post.

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 1:07:10 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		LP I see now you said "recognize" dominance so yeah I agree with that. I thought Hannah said something to the effect of dominance needing to be felt internally by the submissive in order for it to be effective with him/her. That's where I'm coming from in my posts.

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 1:13:49 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The8thForay

I was in a relationship where early on she told me about her lifestyle. She left the scene (needles and some caning were her favs) and we had a great D/s relationship, a lot of breath play, hard face smacking, humiliation, deep throat holding, restraints, etc. She told me over an over that I was the only man and Dom to ever tame her. When we met it took 20 mins of oral to get her off and never had any of kind of orgasm. 7 months in: she was getting off from 5 mins of oral, getting off from penetration only, had her first anal orgasm, and first multiple, I even would put get in that sub space ( where she would cry to "get it out" which def freaked me out the first time) But she also walked into our relationship our of a 10 yr failed marriage/relationship. She has no self worth, has been bulimic since 14, has compulsive workout issues, nd was ver bi polar. She was also an endorphin junkie.

As I look back, outside of the bedroom I treated us like a 50/50 relationship, I cherished her, took VERY good care of her every need, the things a man and Dom is supposed to do. The last month of our relationship we were the closest we had ever been, but, without it previously being discussed, when we had a ad argument she brought violence into an argument and pushed me to the point where I picked her up, and put her on a bathroom counter to calm her down. Then, I saw it- the sub space look. She pushed me to the point where she got me to react to her in our bf/gf relationship. I immediately left, and we haven't spoken since (2 months) we were together 7 months and was my first relationship in 6 yrs. I loved her like I have never loved another woman.

Why did she top me, and How do I spot the warning signs?. I loved the connection we had which was way more intense that a vanilla relstiinship. I want to continue with D/s but I won't have my heart broke like this again.


I don't know.

It's just horrible.

Let me find a few more tissues before I can offer advice.



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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 1:13:53 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Enough about the Op and his shithouse rat crazy girlfriend.

Everytime a sub acts out or acts in a manner contrary to what the Dom wishes is not necessarily topping from the bottom or some massive betrayal or test of his/her Dominance.

You fuckers live in some other world. Maybe on Gor things work in this fashion. In the real world, people have emotions, strong beliefs and opinions that don't are not always controllable or curtailed merely because "I said so."

It's about a relationship and people being people and being able to respond to differences in a fashion that furthers a relationship in lieu of stifling it.

"my way or the highway" is often just a cop out for those that are ill prepared to actually be able to respond in a sentient fashion.

You see a ton of that out here.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 7/25/2011 1:14:19 PM >

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 1:14:13 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Hi NV,

No, I don't think you're getting it wrong.  We're just seeing it from two different perspectives.  You are looking at it from the "would I submit" angle and I'm looking at it from a "would other people submit" angle. 



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 1:23:08 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Enough about the Op and his shithouse rat crazy girlfriend.

Everytime a sub acts out or acts in a manner contrary to what the Dom wishes is not necessarily topping from the bottom or some massive betrayal or test of his/her Dominance.

You fuckers live in some other world. Maybe on Gor things work in this fashion. In the real world, people have emotions, strong beliefs and opinions that don't are not always controllable or curtailed merely because "I said so."

It's about a relationship and people being people and being able to respond to differences in a fashion that furthers a relationship in lieu of stifling it.

"my way or the highway" is often just a cop out for those that are ill prepared to actually be able to respond in a sentient fashion.

You see a ton of that out here.

Here's a shock.  I don't agree with you.

People get entirely too hung up on the "My way or the highway" somehow being a bad thing.  Almost as if people don't have one strike and you're out policies on certain things in relationships.  They absolutely do.  MP and I don't have a power dynamic.  Yet, if he was violent towards Me during an argument, I probably would be out of the relationship.  It's not a 'hey, let's see if you'll do it again' situation. 

When you boil it down, that is My standard before he ever came along.  I know what is acceptable to Me and what is not.  So My 'you will not hit Me in anger' rule while we are in a relationship is absolutely is a My way or the highway point.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 1:27:58 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		that was no longer the example as I clearly stated by saying...."Enough about the Op and his shithouse rat crazy girlfriend. "

Here's a shock, you missed it! Which doesn't really surprise me.

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RE: Why did I get topped from the bottom? - 7/25/2011 1:28:54 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Hi NV,

No, I don't think you're getting it wrong.  We're just seeing it from two different perspectives.  You are looking at it from the "would I submit" angle and I'm looking at it from a "would other people submit" angle. 




Ok thanks LP. And yeah I can really only offer my own personal perspective when others are disputing the need for another's dominance to be felt within the submissive in order for the submissive to be dominated by that person, because it's not an argument that applies to me. If I didnt feel the Mister's dominance within me, I wouldn't be submitting to him. It's kinda weird to see comments to the contrary

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