RE: I Admit It I........

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SimplyMichael -> RE: I Admit It I........ (7/25/2011 7:27:40 AM)
Two different 'WE's are posting 'WE' the board tend to blame the dominant for two reasons. Men in the hopes of looking good and thus getting laid. Submissive blame them because they want to not do the hard work of looking in the mirror and owning their own issues.

Charnegui -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 7:40:02 AM)
The way I see it, it is not entirely "the Dom's" fault. If a decision is made and you do not feel good or well about it, you can pick up your own responsability. If I'm ordered to do something, I can't be in with 100% or more, I will not do it, or I will do it the best way I can, without renouncing myself. And in that way I never have to blame anyone but me.

IrishMist -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 7:43:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rosanegra I had a whole long post typed out, but realized I was more stating my personal opinion than asking the question I really wanted to ask... so here it is, short and sweet. Do you think we blame the Dominant too often when things go wrong? If he's male, then yes.

LaTigresse -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 9:03:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rosanegra Do you think we blame the Dominant too often when things go wrong? Yes. But not we, I don't.

DecadentDesire -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 10:35:42 AM)
Depends on the context you are using "blame". If you are talking about purely accountability, then to me, the dominant is always accountable for the results of his decisions. Behaviors on the part of the girl might have contributed to that, but it's my responsibility to address those behaviors. If you are talking about "blame", in the sense, of finger pointing and assignment of fault when something goes wrong, then any amount of "blame", on either end of the relationship, is too much for me. It's simply a useless sentiment. When one of my decisions doesn't work out like I planned, it becomes purely a question of "Why did it not work out?" and "What can be done differently so it's not repeated in the future?". Once that is established, then the issue is over. Harboring on who's fault it is, second guessing, pointing fingers to alleviate accountability in the problem, and assignment of guilt are NOT behaviors I want to engage in. I deal with enough of that crap at my job. Any partner who engaged in similar behaviors would find themselves out the door in a short period of time. I simply cannot have it, because at the end of the day, if even half of my decisions work out exactly how I want, then I am doing one hell of a bang up job.

kuppykake -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 12:54:13 PM)
The blame game....classic. Why is everything always black OR white? The way I see it, if a D/s relationship isn't working out, then BOTH parties most likely have something to do with it. A D/s relationship isn't much different than a vanilla one in some ways. The world would be better if each individual actually owned up to their own actions and inactions. Personally, I blamed myself at first when my Master and i began to delve into this kind of relationship (we started out vanilla) and things weren't going smoothly. Then I later came to another conclusion that my Master just needed to provide me with better discipline. I thought about how Pavlov's classical conditioning worked, comparing myself to his subjected dog. Even later on I realized that classical conditioning works much better on the less intelligent. Not saying that dogs lack intelligence or that I am a classified genius, but I am too smart for those kind of psychological theories. Yes, negative and/or positive reinforcement can work, but it must be done in a more advanced way. Ok so where am i getting with this? Just as an unruly dog would be difficult to condition or train, an unruly sub is difficult as well. Part of the problem was that I was (and still am) an unruly sub. At the same time, my Master and I were both beginners. To sum up the answer to the question: the Dom does (and should at times) catch the blame often, but that blame should depend on how "unruly" the sub is. And then that starts a whole new topic because then you have to define "unruly". I'm going to stop here because my mind is beginning to drift.

LaTigresse -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 2:30:09 PM)
But as a dominant adult that only wishes to be in relationships with adults..........I expect, even an 'unruly' adult, to take responsibility for their behaviour.

DesFIP -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 2:37:06 PM)
If you're talking about in scene and the sub not communicating then no. It is almost axiomatic that while in subspace a sub is not in a logical and analytical state of mind where they are observant and able to identify problems let alone communicate them. Yesterday he started untying me which confused me no end until after I was untied and then experienced the tingling as the blood rushed back into my arm. Had he asked me if I was all right instead of looking at the color and checking the temperature, I would have said I was fine. If I was able to answer immediately which I probably couldn't have done. Because of this, he needs to be observant and not rely on me to tell him when there's a problem. Now he was a little annoyed at me this morning because I hadn't told him that I had to run a quick errand first thing. That I could have done but I forgot to last night when he finally came in from struggling with car repairs. So it depends on what the problem is as to how to allot the blame.

NuevaVida -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 2:37:19 PM)
In a work environment, the manager/director/VP/Executive leads the group to reach a particular goal. That leader is accountable for the goal being met. The leader is tasked with gathering as much data as necessary, training the team adequately, and communicating the goal and game plan for getting there. The leader must manage time, people, tools, expectations, etc to succeed. Team players not on board are dealt with, either through further training, discipline, encouragement, or dismissal. Reaching the goal itself is the leaders job. Contributing to that mission is the employees' job. Each member of the team is responsible for his/her part, and held accountable for it. In the end, though, its success or failure is determined by the leader's ability to manage the overall picture. My relationship is much the same, only it includes love, sex, and other cool stuff. I contribute, he manages and leads, together we succeed or fail. But a big part of his responsibility (which he chose) is making sure he has the right player(s) on his team, equipped with the right tools.

leadership527 -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 2:38:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kuppykake To sum up the answer to the question: the Dom does (and should at times) catch the blame often, but that blame should depend on how "unruly" the sub is Sort of.... I think this may be generically true enough. But also, as the dominant person it was my choice to select this "unruly" sub, my choice in how I constructed the relationship (and whether it fits her well or not) and my choice in terms of training her. So even if Carol were to totally disobey I'd have to share some responsibility in that. I'm not really arguing with you. Carol DOES have a responsibility to obey or else at least end the authority dynamic gracefully. But I tend to "the buck stops here" mentality which I find generally useful even if it isn't 100% perfectly correct.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 2:42:42 PM)
It depends on the situation. I have seen dominants in real time not handle their relationships well, often due to poor communication. If a couple does not communicate well, it can't always be one person's fault. Generally both are to blame, assuming you like the blame game. I don't. Is the dom accountable for decisions? Of course. But I don't see accountability and blame as the same. Things occur that people have no control over. I think here on the boards the male doms get blamed pretty darned often, mostly b/c 90% of the time it's the fem subs who come on here whining, and wringing their hands, and asking for advice. We only have her side, and like many such stories they are skewed to put the teller in a more favorable light. So as a group, we tend to blame the dom, since he/she is supposed to be who is accountable, anyway. JMO, YMMV

Giermo -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 3:08:45 PM)
If clear limits or desires are not expressed before any kind of play or relationships both parties should be blamed. But, it is the Dom/Dommes fault if he/she is not assertive when discussing what they want to do.

Arpig -> RE: I Admit It I........ (7/25/2011 3:15:34 PM)
quote: Men in the hopes of looking good and thus getting laid. Sorry Mike, but that comes across as you trying to appear wise and realistic in order to get laid. I say what I think, without worrying who might appreciate it or not. Ask around, I've been putting my foot in my mouth for a looooooong time around here.

KnightofMists -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 6:26:56 PM)
I don't play the blame game!!!!! But I do believe in accountability for the results. There are fundamentally two reasons that things go right/wrong. The decision made and the execution of said decision. Bad decisions do tend to undermined execution... Even though execution can sometimes overcome bad decisions. But I have seldom seen good decisions overcome bad execution.

Hisprettybaby -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/25/2011 7:23:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rosanegra Do you think we blame the Dominant too often when things go wrong? Yes. If the Dominant has all the information needed and makes a "bad" decision, then s/he is to blame. But if the sub doesn't give the Dominant all the needed information, either by accident or on purpose, then it's the sub's fault. At least that's how I see it. How can the Dom/me make an informed & good decision if s/he isn't fully informed? And how is the Dom/me supposed to know if the sub hasn't given him/her all the information? There might be information the Dom/me has no idea about. ~Hisprettybaby~

DesFIP -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/26/2011 7:30:26 AM)
Did he ask for her input? Has he set up a situation with free and open communication or has he put roadblocks in the way of allowing her to give input? Because lots of men don't have good communication skills and they gravitate to a d/s relationship under the erroneous belief that they don't need to listen to their partner, to carefully observe nonverbal communication, and to be fully attentive at times. Instead they seek out a relationship where they need not talk or listen, simply give orders. And that kind of set up is doomed to failure.

leadership527 -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/26/2011 8:26:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Did he ask for her input? Has he set up a situation with free and open communication or has he put roadblocks in the way of allowing her to give input? Thanks Des. I was going to respond to HisPrettyBaby then elected not to. But yeah, I'd say that as the decision maker it's my job to make sure I have enough data to make sound decisions -- much of which is contained in the setup work you mentioned. But the bottom line is that if I'm going off half-cocked, for whatever reasons, making random decisions then it's my fault. Then again, I seldom like to lay things at other people's doorsteps because that's how one gives away power. That's probably a large part of why I so religiously won't let go of "fault" between Carol and I. Were I to do so, I'd be giving away my power and authority to her also and neither of us wants that. I'm a power mad bastard when you get down to it.

littlewonder -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/26/2011 8:46:15 AM)
I'm of the opinion that we're all adults and we all have responsibilities and to lie all of that responsibility at the dom's feet is just sheer lunacy and there's no way no one human being can possibly handle all that and his own responsibilities. It is just calling for a mental meltdown and an emotional breakdown of the relationship. No one person can take on all the burdens of the world and I personally don't want my dom taking on every single mistake I make up because sometimes I'm simply a fuckup. It's not his fault so why should I blame him and why should he blame himself? A relationship takes two people...not one and really when it comes right down to it...we're in a relationship.

NuevaVida -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/26/2011 8:57:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists I don't play the blame game!!!!! But I do believe in accountability for the results. This. Once people start throwing "blame" and "fault" around, they are working in conflict with each other, rather than cohesively together. Playing the blame game builds contempt and resentment - relationship killers. The Mister and I work from the same side of the table, so to speak, with whatever the problem is on the other side of the table. If he & I were at opposite ends of that table with the problem in the middle, we'd be pitting ourselves against each other, and who the heck wants that? We are both accountable to the relationship, and to doing our part in fostering the health and happiness of our relationship. He is accountable for leading and managing the relationship. When things go wrong, he assesses, listens to my input, and takes steps toward fixing it.

KnightofMists -> RE: Blame the Dom (7/26/2011 12:32:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I'm of the opinion that we're all adults and we all have responsibilities and to lie all of that responsibility at the dom's feet is just sheer lunacy and there's no way no one human being can possibly handle all that and his own responsibilities. It is just calling for a mental meltdown and an emotional breakdown of the relationship. No one person can take on all the burdens of the world and I personally don't want my dom taking on every single mistake I make up because sometimes I'm simply a fuckup. It's not his fault so why should I blame him and why should he blame himself? A relationship takes two people...not one and really when it comes right down to it...we're in a relationship. Well stated.... I will also add that making decisions with all the information is ideal... But unfortunately sometimes it doesnt always work out that way. Hindsight is a wonderful thing when all the needed information becomes apparent and available.

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