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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 5:19:56 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

why do you/your mother feel the need to belong to a group?
I am sure that there are evil Unitarians as well.


It's nice to be part of a nice group!

My Mom's UU sponsors singing groups, book groups, and other fun extra-curricular activities, as well as various Social Action activities.

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 5:25:38 PM   
hardcybermaster


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None of that sound like fun but that's just me.
I just wish it could be done without belief in god

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 5:26:05 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

I perved you to see where you're from. Looks like your state is in the "bible-belt" so not a surprising attitude. No one has ever asked me this question before (I've lived in MA, NY, FL and Okinawa.)

LOL Yes, pretty much smack dab in the middle of it. Not to mention that most of those who live in this area are Amish.

It's not just her though. I have had this same discussion through the years with people who do not even believe in God themselves. Never have I been asked right out if I believe...it is always an assumption as soon as it is mentioned that I don't go to church.

I am just wondering why; what is the connection between church and belief that so many would make the same assumption?

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 5:26:26 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I am sure that there are evil Unitarians as well.


Note my link was to a particular Catholic priest not to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_abuse_scandal

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 5:29:07 PM   
hardcybermaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

I perved you to see where you're from. Looks like your state is in the "bible-belt" so not a surprising attitude. No one has ever asked me this question before (I've lived in MA, NY, FL and Okinawa.)

LOL Yes, pretty much smack dab in the middle of it. Not to mention that most of those who live in this area are Amish.

It's not just her though. I have had this same discussion through the years with people who do not even believe in God themselves. Never have I been asked right out if I believe...it is always an assumption as soon as it is mentioned that I don't go to church.

I am just wondering why; what is the connection between church and belief that so many would make the same assumption?

brainwashing
do what I do
say what I say
think what I think

That is what they do and if you do not do it then you are weird and strange and scary

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 5:35:35 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I am just wondering why; what is the connection between church and belief that so many would make the same assumption?


I believe in some circles, the intent of prayer to God is to gather together to pray as a group. I see the value in that, as from the little bit I remember reading on it, focused thoughts of a group may be more effective than singular. So, though I'm not so sure that I believe that praying to God almighty in heaven is productive, I do believe that focusing my thoughts similarly to that of the group I'm with can send a more powerful message to, ....let's say, God.

Those people are maybe presuming "God" as everybody's higher power. But whether we call it God or not, the strength of prayer is, I believe, thought to be stronger as a group. (Though, as someone else mentioned, personally, my most spiritual moments have been in solitary. But it's not quite the same thing.) And so, they may also be presuming church to be your gathering of choice for group prayer. I would think it could just as easily be a forest or a movie theatre.

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 6:45:40 PM   
atursvcMaam


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My response to this has always been, "I don't know, and really don't care who built the church, but God made (makes) the sun shine. Why do I need a church to praise (or curse) Her or Him for that and everything else?"
You can continue to ask why an Omniscient and Omnipotent being woudl need intermediaries, but that tends to get confrontational. Thank them for their concern, and tell them that their was is, of course, the one true way. Make an appointment to carry on the conversation in their interpretation of heaven. Promise them that if they think positively of you while they are there, you will appear. Promise them that you can continue the discussion then with much more knowlege.


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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 8:03:34 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Perhaps the same way as me, when I discovererd church was fuck all to do with god and more to do with the firm, i.e. from my experience god was not there, god was just a vehicle to use to keep the firm in operation, yeah catholic as well.

I once visited a church in Shropshire with a bunch of free bretheren friends, the church was basically a barn in a field surrounded by sheep. The barn church was from the past and was kept in good order by the National trust, but once inside I was impressed, it was just a whitewashed barn with pews, but no lectern, no ornamentation and no false idols to focus attention on, thus indicating to me those that in the past who came together to worship there sought the real thing. The barn church is I believe still a consecrated church

I also visiuted a church in Portugal and was astounded at the ornamentation inside and true to form it was there, the gruesome idols that catholicism seems to focus so intently on, and that indicating to me catholicism was a religion of fear, believe or the c firm will have your ass, there can be no dissenters to challenge the status quo.

Later I read articles that were denied by the church, articles that suggested something that I have come to believe, that god and the kingdom of heaven and hell reside within the person, what we experience is up to us and that purely by the way we think and feel. The church being the house of god, did it never occur perhaps god never had need for a house

But I suppose churches serve their purpose as museums and records of past craftspeople, who I believe put the best of their skill into churches.

I rejected God and religion at a very early age. I didn’t mind the little chapel in the hospital my mother worked in and the nuns but I hated going to church on Sunday, that church was Greek Orthodox and I was forced to sit there forever it seemed as the priest yammered on in a foreign language and dosed the place in some sort of stinky incense. ugh..

I do like the architecture & design in some churches but I dislike religion immensely. My ex’s brother and wives were religious, you know.. the kind that calls themselves good Christians and go to church on Sunday but screws everyone else the rest of the week… hmmm, I think there should be a proper term for that… maybe “religious psychopath”? That bunch sure didn’t have any qualms about doing some things I thought were disgusting…



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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 8:13:10 PM   
Marini


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NO! Church and GOD are not the same!!

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 8:21:07 PM   
Marini


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Church and GOD could never be the same thing.

Isn't a church a building that was built by man?



< Message edited by Marini -- 7/25/2011 8:40:29 PM >


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As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
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NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/25/2011 8:24:46 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I rejected God and religion at a very early age. I didn’t mind the little chapel in the hospital my mother worked in and the nuns but I hated going to church on Sunday, that church was Greek Orthodox and I was forced to sit there forever it seemed as the priest yammered on in a foreign language and dosed the place in some sort of stinky incense. ugh..

I do like the architecture & design in some churches but I dislike religion immensely. My ex’s brother and wives were religious, you know.. the kind that calls themselves good Christians and go to church on Sunday but screws everyone else the rest of the week… hmmm, I think there should be a proper term for that… maybe “religious psychopath”? That bunch sure didn’t have any qualms about doing some things I thought were disgusting…





We have not had any good church or Christian bashing threads lately!
I am surprised, we are long overdue!
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/26/2011 1:59:19 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

The following is a short conversation that I have had with quite a few others over the years, most recently with a young lady who moved in next door to us this summer

Her: What church do you go to?
Me: I don't go to church.
Her: You don't believe in God?
Me: I never said I did not believe in God. I said I do not go to church.
Her: Same thing.

So, someone tell me please. Are the two really the same? Is not going to church a statement to others that you do not believe in God?

It is just not one person who has this reaction when I tell them that we don't go to church.

I am really curious. Is there some deep, unknown reason for people to assume this?

Hi Mist,

I'm with you on this one.  I don't really think that believing in God  and attending church are the same thing.  BK was good enough to provide a particular scripture on the matter, where I fail, but I know there are other passages that specifically mention going to "God's house" which the interpretation for many means 'go to church'. 

The exchange that you had, with a very important mention of except the last line, was something I encountered a lot when we moved to GA.  Probably the third on the list of questions that folks ask when you move to the bible belt.  (1.  Where are you from?  2.  Who is your family?  3.  Where do you attend church?)  Since I never did get that 'then you don't believe' reaction, I guess that's why I never took offense to it.  Most folks were doing it out of the goodness of their heart should I *want* to find a church.  They didn't mean any harm by it, so I couldn't hold it against them.



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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/26/2011 2:47:21 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

The following is a short conversation that I have had with quite a few others over the years, most recently with a young lady who moved in next door to us this summer

Her: What church do you go to?
Me: I don't go to church.
Her: You don't believe in God?
Me: I never said I did not believe in God. I said I do not go to church.
Her: Same thing.

So, someone tell me please. Are the two really the same? Is not going to church a statement to others that you do not believe in God?

It is just not one person who has this reaction when I tell them that we don't go to church.

I am really curious. Is there some deep, unknown reason for people to assume this?


1. As a Jew, I resent the idea that those who attend synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. are not worshiping God.  Bugs me when some religion assumes that those not of their religion don't count.

2. IMO, worshiping in a congregation is an entirely valid way to worship.  Not the only way, though.

3. Worship is when you interact with God.  Church is where you are with a bunch of people.

To answer your question, when you get a critical mass of people that all believe the same thing, they tend to forget that other ways exist.  I saw that with the Mormons in Utah, for example.  And just showing my age, Richard Nixon created the concept of the silent majority because he couldn't believe that polls showed such a disparity between the will of the people, and the thoughts of the elite moneyed conservatives he hung with.


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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/26/2011 4:08:44 AM   
Aneirin


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quote:



I do like the architecture & design in some churches but I dislike religion immensely. My ex’s brother and wives were religious, you know.. the kind that calls themselves good Christians and go to church on Sunday but screws everyone else the rest of the week… hmmm, I think there should be a proper term for that… maybe “religious psychopath”? That bunch sure didn’t have any qualms about doing some things I thought were disgusting…


Bingo ! Also my observation of some religious church goers, it seemed to me they said they were one thing, but did not act it. Catholicism even worse with the confession after the fact thus implying doing wrong is permitted as long as one cofesses their sins. That I am afraid is not good enough for me as if the teachings mean nothing, one can go on as normal fucking everyone over and then perhaps one day a week confess, receive a bunch of prayers to say to say sorry to god, but what about the people fucked over, they remain that and often receive no apology or recompense.

I also quit religion at an early age, I refused to take communion, ( due to thoughts about cannibalism, and the fact that did it never occur that the last supper might have been a time when Jesus was a tadge pissed off with the society he tried to change, he might have been giving them what they wanted in despair ), and backed away from the church, the lot of it, the bible groups, the almost compulsory masses and the confessional as even then it occurred to me there was something dodgy about that Irish Catholic priest who later called at our house to give me an interview as to why I was keeping away. After helping himself to my absent fathers whisky he suggested in the past I would be punished as a heretic for what I had said to him, as my understanding of god was not that which the catholic church promotes. Later I understood my error was that I possessed free will and had the ability to think for myself, not have the church think for me. But as a supposed heretic, I later referred to myself as Pagan and that because I was free to believe what my conscience believed was right. Only later, much later did I find the articles that the church denied that described something which seemed to run parallel to what I had discovered for myself, my brand of paganism which has influences from Indian belief also is in a Christian belief long buried by the church.

The Apocrypha or the denied books of the bible, I always questioned why they were denied, and discovered much of that was because it did not help church policy, which then goes on to suggest what the church is, is an organisation based on the teachings of god, but not god's church, the two things are different, as if they were not, why are certain books excluded from the bible and up until recently, the advent of the internet and with that, The Internet Sacred Texts Archive, why before where certain writings not too easily accessible to the public. If one is going to spout god stuff, they spout it all so people can choose for themselves, not have that choice made for them.

So, my understanding of religion is such that if it picks and chooses which writings it wants to use as a vehicle for the control of people, this thing that those with belief seek will never be found, instead, it will be perverted to serve the interests of man, as history has shown and continues to show.

Oh, in finality, this song sums up my understanding of the Catholic church ;

Church of Madness ( the video depicts many bdsm interests, which gave rise to my past posting about religious play in bdsm, which from consensus many seem to think the premise is edgy at the best)

And the church in general ;

Never Forget The Burning Times



Edited because i pressed the wrong button when inserting a link





< Message edited by Aneirin -- 7/26/2011 4:41:11 AM >


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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/26/2011 4:15:48 AM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

do what I do
say what I say
think what I think

That is what they do and if you do not do it then you are weird and strange and scary

I've lost count of all the atheists I have met over the years who take that very attitude - "I KNOW that there is no God - and there is only one TRUTH that there is no God - so if you do not agree with me, you're weird, strange, crazy and clearly mentally ill"

Belief in God or non-belief in God is a personal matter and does not require weekly meetings with a troop of fellow believers or non-believers.

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/26/2011 6:44:34 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster
why do you/your mother feel the need to belong to a group?
I am sure that there are evil Unitarians as well.

Perhaps because people like to belong to groups. I have a friend who recently joined a UU church for precisely that reason and I'm looking forward to checking it out with her.

Having recently met people that were actually going hermit insane, I have to say groups are a good thing.

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/26/2011 7:50:58 AM   
Hillwilliam


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I go fishing almost every sunday morning.

Once, when I caught a ration of crap from someone telling Me I needed to be in church, I told them the following:

I feel a lot closer to the maker when I'm out in the river.

(The sun is coming over the mountain as the mist swirls. A beaver or otter glides thru the water upstream. Ducks and herons fly over calling. The splash of that first rise of the day as a hatch starts. The rhythm of the flyrod back and forth so calming and cunducive to contemplation)

Than I do sitting in a stuffy building with a bunch of people that were drunk off their ass 6 hours ago listening to a guy that I know damn well is fucking the organist telling me that I'm a bad person and I need to repent.

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/26/2011 8:32:51 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
So, my understanding of religion is such that if it picks and chooses which writings it wants to use as a vehicle for the control of people, this thing that those with belief seek will never be found, instead, it will be perverted to serve the interests of man, as history has shown and continues to show.

that is the thing about religion... it is there to control people..

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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/26/2011 9:11:51 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist


It's not just her though. I have had this same discussion through the years with people who do not even believe in God themselves. Never have I been asked right out if I believe...it is always an assumption as soon as it is mentioned that I don't go to church.

I am just wondering why; what is the connection between church and belief that so many would make the same assumption?


I think that it's a natural assumption for people to make, because in most cases people who believe in god define themselves as religious.  So I don't blame anyone for jumping to that  initial conclusion.

But in the case of your neighbor, once you explained the distinction, and she continued to insist that they were one and the same, it became a different matter. At that point, you were dealing with a dogmatic, shallow thinker. Some people just don't have a lot of intellectual agility, and you're apparently living next door to one.


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RE: Church and God; One and the same? - 7/26/2011 9:14:44 AM   
littlewonder


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attending church with others of the same belief is like attending a support group.

You go to support each other, to confirm  and reaffirm your beliefs, to be in a community of others of likeness who won't constantly denigrate you for your beliefs.

It helps us to learn and teach others of the same belief instead of trying to learn it on our own. It's like going to school. You have a professor who is there to guide and lead. If you don't believe in the bible or think you know more about the bible than those who have a degree in theology then there's no reason for you to attend services i suppose.

People complain they don't go to church because they are just money hungry grabbers but when you attend a PTA meeting or even a bdsm group, don't you give money to keep it running, to keep that coffee and snacks flowing, to pay the rental for you to meet every week? Not every church is Catholic and has the Pope who will pay to keep their doors open. Many if not  most churches rely on the support of their patrons just like any other weekly group meeting.

And my last point is accountability. Attending church keeps you from rationalizing away your sins and justifying them. By attending church you are held accountable. When you confess aka talk about your problems there will be someone there who will show you your errors, where you've been led astray, how you can fix it and how God still loves you even though you've fucked up. He simply wants you to make amends and steer you back on the right path.

While I haven't attended church for awhile now, I know it's something I should do and plan on returning very soon. For me attending church soothes me and gives me more of a connection with God along with my personal prayer and study of the bible.

And it's not like much is required of me....one day a week I have to actually get up out of bed in the morning to attend an hour long session which will put me in a better frame of mind for the rest of the week. hhhmm...I think I can survive that.



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