RE: Church and God; One and the same? (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 10:50:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Perhaps because people like to belong to groups. I have a friend who recently joined a UU church for precisely that reason and I'm looking forward to checking it out with her.

Having recently met people that were actually going hermit insane, I have to say groups are a good thing.


Two of my Dad's favorite jokes about Unitarians (Dad was an ordained American Baptist Convention minister and went to seminary with several Unitarian ministers who became life-long friends):

1. The only thing Unitarians really believe in is that they like getting together with a group of friends every Sunday morning.

2. If a Unitarian extremist disagrees with you - he burns a Question Mark on your front lawn.



philosophy -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 12:39:59 PM)

FR to OP

Absolutely not. Church and God are utterly different concepts,

This is not to imply thjat one of them is good and one bad. Just that it's an apples and oranges comparison.

It's a bit like trying to suggest that education can only happen in specific buildings, or that political debate can only happen in designated areas.

The activity is not the same as the geography.



Moonhead -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 12:44:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
If a Unitarian extremist disagrees with you - he burns a Question Mark on your front lawn.

I like that one. That's rather brilliant, in fact.



Moonhead -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 12:46:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR to OP

Absolutely not. Church and God are utterly different concepts,

This is not to imply thjat one of them is good and one bad. Just that it's an apples and oranges comparison.

It's a bit like trying to suggest that education can only happen in specific buildings, or that political debate can only happen in designated areas.

The activity is not the same as the geography.

I think Phillip Pullman wrote three tiresome and overpraised novels stressing that distinction. Only the first one got filmed, for some reason...



philosophy -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 12:47:07 PM)

It's also one reason why the Quakers are one of the two Christian groups I have nothing but respect for.



Moonhead -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 12:53:13 PM)

Much as it pains me to admit it, I have a lot of respect for the Methodists. They do more charity work than any other Christian group over here, and whatever your attitude towards John Wesley is, that excuses all of the other stuff.



philosophy -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 3:28:41 PM)

Good point Moonhead, they're one of the churches that does try to walk the talk.

However, too many of them were involved with the Residential Schools scandal for me to unreservedly support them.

The Quakers and the Sally Army though do amazingly good work.

Odd little factet.......

Amateur bands often rehearse in Church halls. When punk rock hit the scene in the UK many churches banned them from the premises. However, the Quakers joyfully let punk bands rehearse in the buildings they controlled. I've always admired that.



dcnovice -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 4:08:40 PM)

quote:

1. The only thing Unitarians really believe in is that they like getting together with a group of friends every Sunday morning.


As a UU myself, I sometimes joke that we're really agnostics who like bake sales. [:)]



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 5:09:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

The following is a short conversation that I have had with quite a few others over the years, most recently with a young lady who moved in next door to us this summer

Her: What church do you go to?
Me: I don't go to church.
Her: You don't believe in God?
Me: I never said I did not believe in God. I said I do not go to church.
Her: Same thing.

So, someone tell me please. Are the two really the same? Is not going to church a statement to others that you do not believe in God?

It is just not one person who has this reaction when I tell them that we don't go to church.

I am really curious. Is there some deep, unknown reason for people to assume this?

For me, not going to church is just an indication that I do not feel the need to be part of a group in order to have my beliefs. If anyone wants to take that as me not believing in something greater than us all, I don't care. Heck, many who do go to church a lot, I think are heathens-lol.



IrishMist -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 9:33:53 PM)

quote:

Preachers HATE that chapter of Matthew.

LOL Do you know, I had the same conversation with a preacher here in town during one of the food drives...his reaction was much the same as the young ladies that I quoted. I brought up the verse quoted by BK...we went back and forth for a good two hours with this discussion...looking back, I can now see that it was really quite amusing.

quote:

As a young man (infant through about age 18 or 19) I was an Episcopalian. We were taught the Church is the people, not the building. That might be a good reply to those that ask you.

Now see, I was brought up Southern Baptist...and we were actually taught pretty close to the same thing. My parents very rarely ever went to church...they did their worshipping at home.

quote:

I believe in some circles, the intent of prayer to God is to gather together to pray as a group.I see the value in that, as from the little bit I remember reading on it, focused thoughts of a group may be more effective than singular.

Now see, I actually can understand and even agree with this.
But, how does a belief in a group as a stronger body turn into 'if you are not with the group, then you are not a believer'? That's what I am trying to understand. Where this assumption comes from.
I don't think it's just a church's attempt to corral all the people it can into a building. There has to be some underlying reason why so many think like this. Even people who DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD, have this same reaction.

quote:

but I know there are other passages that specifically mention going to "God's house" which the interpretation for many means 'go to church'.

I agree. That seems to be the go-to for most who get into this debate with me. They use scripture that stresses 'go to God''s house" which of course, over the years, has gone on to mean 'go to church'. [8|]

quote:

I think that it's a natural assumption for people to make, because in most cases people who believe in god define themselves as religious.

Ok. But then, I have to ask. Why can't a person who does NOT go to church, be considered religious?



Kirata -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 11:35:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Me: I never said I did not believe in God. I said I do not go to church.
Her: Same thing.

I am really curious. Is there some deep, unknown reason for people to assume this?

It's not the same thing, of course, and I don't subscribe to the view being expressed. But perhaps I can at least help you understand where it's coming from.

First of all, it will be understood by some people as saying that you don’t want to be with Christ, because "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20).

Second, in addition to worship the purpose of assembly is encouragement of one another in the faith, per "let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is" (Hebrews 10:24-25).

A more accurate way to state the view of the lady with whom you were speaking is, if you don't assemble with other believers then you don't believe in the Bible.

K.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 11:43:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Ok. But then, I have to ask. Why can't a person who does NOT go to church, be considered religious?


I'm religious. Currently not attending church regularly. I don't think it makes any more difference than the believing in God and not going to church.

Some people don't seem to understand that they aren't the same thing. I often wonder what their pastor would have to say to that.

But then again, I have never understood why those who don't believe in God seem to have such an irrational need to bash the concept. I don't see it work the other way so much, at least on here. Not a lot of "you don't believe, you are going to burn in hell, what is wrong with you?" kind of responses. Very regularly though, we see those who have to talk about how people who believe are "sheeple," weak, deluded, etc. Almost like a "methinks thou doth protest too much kind of thing."

I enjoy going to my church, but that's me. I've missed going since staying with a friend. But just because I am not currently attending, doesn't mean that I stopped believing. Even before, there were times that I didn't make it to church. Didn't make me less religious or mean that my belief wasn't as strong.

Part of me thinks that you should find out where your neighbor goes to church, and then pick the religion she would find most unappealing and attempt to convert her. When she becomes shocked at your behavior, just say, "Someone questioning or bashing your beliefs doesn't feel so good, huh?" and then walk away and give her time to think.




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/26/2011 11:50:37 PM)

i don't believe God and church are the same thing. the church i grew up in had some really great people; people i would say were really Christian. but it also had lots of the "only on Sundays" types, the church ladies who used it as their High School Round 2, the fashion crowd who only seemed to come to show off their expensive suits and big crazy hats, blah blah blah.
i visited a church in michigan where they go around with TRASH CANS and beat the congregation about the head and shoulders with guilt in order to squeeze every last dime out of them -- they'll even take your credit card. =p

i think God and churches have different goals most of the time.

ETA to say that i have to agree with LafayetteLady -- a lot of people who are anti-religion or anti-church go out of their way to bash people who dont agree with them. they claim (i'm sure i wrote basically this same thing in another thread) that they're railing against similar behavior by Christians, but all the vitriol is aimed at regular everyday people who AREN'T doing it. i've never understood that.

i don't consider myself religious these days, but i don't mind people who are.



tweakabelle -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/27/2011 8:53:50 AM)

I don't believe in either God or a Church, but I do see them as very different things.

In view of the paedophile and other sexual scandals that seem to be plaguing various Churches, this seems fair enough to me. It would be terrible if God got implicated in one of those scandals wouldn't it?



Musicmystery -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/27/2011 9:32:50 AM)

quote:

why do you/your mother feel the need to belong to a group?


Human beings generally feel the need to belong to a group.

If you need support for that, OK, Maslow. But it's clearly observable, even for "loners."



LaTigresse -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/27/2011 10:15:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

The following is a short conversation that I have had with quite a few others over the years, most recently with a young lady who moved in next door to us this summer

Her: What church do you go to?
Me: I don't go to church.
Her: You don't believe in God?
Me: I never said I did not believe in God. I said I do not go to church.
Her: Same thing.

So, someone tell me please. Are the two really the same? Is not going to church a statement to others that you do not believe in God?

It is just not one person who has this reaction when I tell them that we don't go to church.

I am really curious. Is there some deep, unknown reason for people to assume this?


I haven't a clue why some people feel this way.

All I know is how I feel about it and that is..........church and god couldn't be further from one another. Based upon what I was taught as a kid, every single church I've poked around at, breaks nearly every rule the bible teaches. So much for god and church going together.



GotSteel -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/28/2011 5:22:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
In view of the paedophile and other sexual scandals that seem to be plaguing various Churches, this seems fair enough to me. It would be terrible if God got implicated in one of those scandals wouldn't it?

Like raping the Virgin Mary...



GotSteel -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/28/2011 6:21:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
But then again, I have never understood why those who don't believe in God seem to have such an irrational need to bash the concept. I don't see it work the other way so much, at least on here. Not a lot of "you don't believe, you are going to burn in hell, what is wrong with you?" kind of responses.

I'm of the opinion that the rise of vocal and organized non-theists is largely a result of certain christian groups: 1. the going to burn in hell thing. 2. trying to legislate their superstitions.

Well, besides the significant number of people on here who tell atheists that they are not atheist, I agree with you. This site isn't particularly aggressive towards us, it also isn't a accurate representation of the society we currently live in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Very regularly though, we see those who have to talk about how people who believe are "sheeple," weak, deluded, etc.

After a certain amount of aggressive proselytizing and legislation it's not terribly surprising that you're going to run into the whole we're here we're atheists get used to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Almost like a "methinks thou doth protest too much kind of thing."

If you've run into atheists being less than friendly towards you it might be from saying stuff like that. That's like telling someone that they don't believe in God, it's a douche bag move.




JWriter -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/28/2011 1:49:08 PM)

No, there is a deep, very known reason for people to assume it- but, since they do not know all the circumstances, it is still just assumption.
I would say "I don't go to church." as I don't. Church = congregation. One does not go to the congregation, one is part of it. I would also say I do not attend religious meetings, because, it is the truth; but, it is not out of lack of desire, but, lack of health, cool breezes, and/or transportation.
However, assuming one is talking about that one true God, Jehovah, father of Jesus, God Almighty, etc. then making a conscious choice not to attend religious meetings, without health or lack of anyone else to be with, is showing a terrible lack of faith and obedience in Him, since, in the Holy Scriptures, it says do not forsake the gathering together of yourselves in His name.And, of course, forsaking the gathering together of yourself with others, for the sake of support, learning, and helping to build each other's strength of will power and faith, banding together against the cold, dark, selfishness of the world, is exactly what someone is doing, when they are choosing not to attend religious meetings.
So, the reason for attending them is deep, the benefits from attending the right ones are deep, and, if the person is seeing it as wrong that you do not attend, because they actually know what the Holy Scriptures say (as opposed to just viewing it as "not normal"), then, their reasoning is deep and they are probably concerned for your spiritual health.
In which case, I would suggest you be happy, because, whether you agree with everything they say or not, it is very nice when people are concerned on your behalf.



GotSteel -> RE: Church and God; One and the same? (7/29/2011 9:28:33 AM)

I'm at a loss as to how judging the OP based on Bible passages that say what they want to hear while ignoring the inconvenient one's is deep. It seems about the opposite to me.



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