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RE: Spanking - 7/30/2011 1:20:06 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Yup, that was my read too... both the original post and then the follow up.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Spanking - 7/30/2011 1:26:13 PM   
MasterNeo1


Posts: 27
Joined: 7/29/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

People have been teaching their kids with pain ever since the dawn of time. If pain doesn't teach, then how did all those people over the last five thousand or so years learn?

And what does it being 2011 have to do with anything, was there some sort of sudden revelation in 2010 that we had it wrong all this time? I don't think so.

It's only in the last generation or two that kids weren't spanked as a common part of their upbringing, and if I'm honest, when I look at my peers and compare them to our grandparents, my generation doesn't look too good. I'm not big on tradition for it's own sake, I break taboos daily, but in this case the old way may just have something going for it.

This is pathetic, I don't think I've said anything silly all day. You people are a bad influence.



I have to agree, that you do make a valid point. Pain has been proven to be effective with teaching. However, I think the issue is not so much whether it is effective or not. But rather, who it is effective for, and why. The fact of the matter, is that we are all different. All subs learn differently. Therefore, we have no right to call others a 'bad influence' or judge them, due to them carrying out a practice that happens to work with their relationship.

And as for the OP: If your methods of spanking have proven successful, and you continue to maintain a healthy relationship with your sub, then by all means, continue with how you see fit. However, there have been some insightful posts so far. So I would suggest taking them into consideration.

< Message edited by MasterNeo1 -- 7/30/2011 1:27:21 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Spanking - 7/30/2011 1:56:11 PM   
Epytropos


Posts: 699
Joined: 7/23/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
People have been teaching their kids with pain ever since the dawn of time. If pain doesn't teach, then how did all those people over the last five thousand or so years learn?



Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. People used leaches to cure the flu for a good while too. How do we account for the people who recovered if leaches don't cure viral infections?

I do agree with you, mind you. I don't adhere to a punishment dynamic, but rebalancing the risk/reward schema for certain behaviors is certainly good for creating desirable habits. Nonetheless, that's just faulty logic.


_____________________________

They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Spanking - 7/30/2011 2:01:02 PM   
coookie


Posts: 541
Joined: 10/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
People have been teaching their kids with pain ever since the dawn of time. If pain doesn't teach, then how did all those people over the last five thousand or so years learn?



Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. People used leaches to cure the flu for a good while too. How do we account for the people who recovered if leaches don't cure viral infections?

I do agree with you, mind you. I don't adhere to a punishment dynamic, but rebalancing the risk/reward schema for certain behaviors is certainly good for creating desirable habits. Nonetheless, that's just faulty logic.



leeches have also been reinstated for the medicinal use that they are effective for.

It is all about consequences and how those consequences are delivered will differ depending on the people involved. If CP works for one couple it is not the place of anyone else to jump up and down shouting "That's bad!!"

(in reply to Epytropos)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Spanking - 7/30/2011 2:08:02 PM   
Epytropos


Posts: 699
Joined: 7/23/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: coookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
People have been teaching their kids with pain ever since the dawn of time. If pain doesn't teach, then how did all those people over the last five thousand or so years learn?



Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. People used leaches to cure the flu for a good while too. How do we account for the people who recovered if leaches don't cure viral infections?

I do agree with you, mind you. I don't adhere to a punishment dynamic, but rebalancing the risk/reward schema for certain behaviors is certainly good for creating desirable habits. Nonetheless, that's just faulty logic.



leeches have also been reinstated for the medicinal use that they are effective for.

It is all about consequences and how those consequences are delivered will differ depending on the people involved. If CP works for one couple it is not the place of anyone else to jump up and down shouting "That's bad!!"


I agree completely, as I said. It's not her conclusion I took issue with. As to leeches, I assume you're referring to the process of using leeches to drain blood from swollen areas and to deal with clotting issues post-surgery, which is in no way the same as using them to treat viruses.


_____________________________

They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

(in reply to coookie)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Spanking - 7/30/2011 2:16:22 PM   
SuzeCheri


Posts: 483
Joined: 7/19/2011
From: Outside looking in
Status: offline
quote:

People used leaches to cure the flu for a good while too. How do we account for the people who recovered if leaches don't cure viral infections?
Not really a valid comparison, since most of the people treated for viral infections by using leeches didn't recover, while the vast majority of those people who were raised with the idea that they could learn through pain, did learn. I'm not saying if its right or wrong, I don't know, I'm only saying that it does work.

(in reply to Epytropos)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Spanking - 7/30/2011 2:38:17 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Carol and I do not have a punishment dynamic or an S/m one.

That being said, the idea that people do not learn through punishment seems ludicrous to me. Of course they do. Just like all tools though, there are ups and downs to this one... big downs if it's not the right context. At least the way I see it, the pros and cons to negative reinforcement are:

Pro: It tends to have immediate results.
Con: It can have a wealth of complications... notably building up a raft of resentment and/or damaging the person punished.

I think savvy leaders look at the tools in their tool belt and the ACTUAL situation and ACTUAL person they are facing and then they make decisions about what tool to use. The fact that MY person and situation would not benefit from a punishment dynamic doesn't mean the tool is generally worthless... or even necessarily worthless in my marriage in very limited contexts.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SuzeCheri)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 9:33:58 AM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		Yes I find punishment archaic and believe it is outdated/toxic/unhealthy and yes well, wrong. That is me. I think a lot of you are out of your freaking minds and acting out all sorts of horrors, my opinion. I would not walk toward "Punishment as a learning tool" This is me. Your path is your path and if you dig it, that is your choice.

Punishment is crap. Not showing up for work and getting fired or whatever is not punishment it is Consequences. Asking my boss to stick needles in me, or punch me in the face so I wont do it again is not effective learning for me. If I do something and consequences evolve I need to learn like everyone else on this planet but I am not going to ask anyone to beat the shit out of me because it will help me learn. I have opinions, they are mine and I like having my opinions. You have a right to do whatever it is you want to do. If you want to "learn" by being beaten, your choice.

Personally no one is going to lay on finger on me to "teach" me anything. My path and I am on it.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 10:32:21 AM   
coookie


Posts: 541
Joined: 10/25/2010
Status: offline 		So a consequence of being an uppity twat is that i get my ass spanked.

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 10:42:31 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

For fun


If you are doing it for any other reason, you aren't in control.

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 12:37:00 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline
quote:

So a consequence of being an uppity twat is that i get my ass spanked.
And from that you learn not to be an uppity twat. Or the other way around, depending on your view on getting your ass spanked.

(in reply to coookie)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 12:41:29 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

For fun


If you are doing it for any other reason, you aren't in control.


So a punishment dynamic isn't valid? Huh, waddya know, learn something new every day.

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

Team Troll Trollop
Member: Cocksuckers For World Peace
Charter member: Lance's Fag Hags
Member: Subbie Mafia
Member: Hibbie's Hotties

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 12:42:12 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: coookie

So a consequence of being an uppity twat is that i get my ass spanked.


If you dig getting spanked, cool, but to hit someone to teach them shit is Neanderthalic.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to coookie)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 12:51:17 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

For fun


If you are doing it for any other reason, you aren't in control.


So a punishment dynamic isn't valid? Huh, waddya know, learn something new every day.


Hey Zeph, interesting interpretation, but not quite what I was implying.

As adults, we are likely engage in a relationship that fulfills our desires and needs, one that we get pleasure and fulfillment from. When this isn't fun anymore, it's because it has gotten out of control.

If you enjoy your punishment dynamic, then it is what it is. But if you didn't enjoy it, you wouldn't be in it.

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 12:54:34 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: coookie

Punishment is a fact of life. If i dont go to work i am punished by not getting paid.


That's not punishment, that's a consequence. Doing something unpleasant that was unrelated is punishment.

My problem with corporal punishment is that if you go it to a dog, you're guilty of animal abuse but if you do it to a person you're a successful teacher? Not in my book.

As far as teaching a 3 year old not to hit by hitting him? That's laughable. Do as I say, not as I do is not something I subscribe to.

If he tells me to go change the oil in the car, it's not going to happen. He could beat me till the cows come home but I still am not capable of getting the car up, and getting that plug out. Hell, I couldn't even find it.

There would have to be a lot of teaching and physical accommodation  to enable me to do this. Punishment doesn't teach know how. It would teach me not to do stuff for fear of failure. It wouldn't teach me to try new things.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to coookie)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 12:58:02 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527


I think savvy leaders look at the tools in their tool belt and the ACTUAL situation and ACTUAL person they are facing and then they make decisions about what tool to use. The fact that MY person and situation would not benefit from a punishment dynamic doesn't mean the tool is generally worthless... or even necessarily worthless in my marriage in very limited contexts.


Stop being so damn open minded, would ya? 

I was at a discussion group dinner a few weeks ago when the topic of punishment came up.  The views were as varied (and as passionately stated) as the ones in this thread.  For some, because of where they are in life at the moment, punishment is the language they understand.  For others, because of where they are in life at the moment, punishment would be the worst thing in the world for them.  It was really cool to see everyone come to a respectful and enlightened understanding of it.

As for spanking - he spanks me because he enjoys the hell out of it.  Or sometimes he wants to take out frustrations from the day and I'm a more than willing "victim".  Sometimes I might be the source of his frustrations (although rarely, since I'm so damn sweet, hehe), so he'll spank me.  It's all good, whatever reason he chooses to hit me for, bring it on, Babe, I'll take it. 

As for actually punishing, a lot of people automatically go straight to some sort of painful corporal punishment reference when the topic comes up.  I do get punished (although rarely, since I'm do damn sweet ) but painful corporal punishments aren't really his style.  They're physical, and ridiculously effective because they bring home the message he wants me to get from it, but they have a mental and emotional affect.  They do not hurt, physically.  His creativity baffles me.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 4:04:40 PM   
Buzzzz


Posts: 839
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

From my experience, most submissives enjoy to be spanked.

I know a number of submissive folk who do not enjoy pain at all.



This is why I wrote "MOST submissives" and not "ALL submissives".

< Message edited by Buzzzz -- 7/31/2011 4:05:44 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 4:21:40 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

For fun


If you are doing it for any other reason, you aren't in control.


So a punishment dynamic isn't valid? Huh, waddya know, learn something new every day.


Hey Zeph, interesting interpretation, but not quite what I was implying.

As adults, we are likely engage in a relationship that fulfills our desires and needs, one that we get pleasure and fulfillment from. When this isn't fun anymore, it's because it has gotten out of control.

If you enjoy your punishment dynamic, then it is what it is. But if you didn't enjoy it, you wouldn't be in it.


Sorry LadyA I took your post to mean "fun" in the sense of not serious.

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

Team Troll Trollop
Member: Cocksuckers For World Peace
Charter member: Lance's Fag Hags
Member: Subbie Mafia
Member: Hibbie's Hotties

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 4:23:45 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Sorry LadyA I took your post to mean "fun" in the sense of not serious.


I take my fun very seriously ;-)

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Spanking - 7/31/2011 8:43:32 PM   
HannahLynHeather


Posts: 2950
Joined: 4/4/2011
From: where it's at
Status: offline
quote:

Punishment doesn't teach know how.
of course it doesn't, that's just fucking daft. punishment, of any sort, not just corporal, is a tool to correct undesirable behaviours. it does teach, it teaches you that there are fucking consequences to your actions.

now for us, punishment generally consists of my very clearly expressed disapproval. that seems to be pretty fucking effective. we will also have a talk about why she did what she did, why she shouldn't have, and how she's going to avoid doing it again. sometimes i'll have her stand in the corner as well, especially if i am particularly annoyed or she's upset. it gives us both time to calm down and gather our thoughts. <that and i get to stare at her ass >


_____________________________

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i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

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Profile   Post #: 80
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