RE: The Natural submissive (Full Version)

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Arturas -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 12:52:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Masterdx2001

The Natural Submissive

I feel that courtesy is a strong indication of a good submissive as well as a good dominant. As a submissive, he or she asks his or her dominant for an immense amount of time, attention, and thought. Dominating someone requires a great deal of work and effort. While the submissive obviously has needs, he or she should devote himself or herself to pleasing his or her dominant as best they can. The submissive being honest and sincere about what types of play interests him or her. If the submissive is a masochist, with little or no interest in performing personal service for a dominant, he or she may tend to annoy or frustrate a dominant that has high expectations on being served. Also, there are those subs that are only interested in performing or providing a sexual service. While others tend to provide such services on a limited basis, such as domestic or office help, and then there totally devoted submissive’s who serve their dominant any way they can. One of the qualities of good submissive is to show honesty with respect to his or her needs and desires, to the extent that he or she currently knows and understands them, will serve the sub well here. While a dominant is not essentially under any obligation to request that the submissive do things that suit him or her. The sub should offer numerous ways to his or his dominant as reasonably possible. After all, the more way a submissive can make a dominant's life pleasant, the more useful he or she is as a sub. A good submissive should diplomatically be as clear as he or she can about his or her limits. I strongly believe that a frustrated and resentful submissive is no fun for any dominant.

Another characteristic that describes a good and true submissive is to not be pushy. A good sub won't approach a dominant and, uninvited; descend to his or her knees at his or her feet. I can tell you from my lifestyle experience that it is a truly a turn-off with many dominants, myself included. This can be viewed, in its own fashion, as a non-consensual act, given the fact consent and negotiations are the one of the cornerstones of SM and DS. I appreciate and can tolerate a certain amount of subtle, low-key flirting. I am definitely impressed by formal introductions from potential submissive’s, whether by email, in person, or introduced through a known third party. A good and true submissive won't approach another sub's dominant and come onto him or her by kneeling or acting submissive in a conspicuous manner without that dominant's prior and express approval. Doing so can create immense hostilities between the two submissive, which can spiral out of control. A good and true submissive should avoid being a smart-ass masochist. SAMs will misbehave on purpose to provoke their dominants into punishing them. This can be fun and erotically hot within the context of a pre-negotiated scene. I love for my sub to be what I call "sassy defiance." I absolutely love it when a submissive can make me rise to the challenge of making her hot ass heel. Being a SAM is frowned upon when it is engaged in a non-consensual fashion, or when the couple is outside the SM scene. A sub who acts in such a manner is essentially weak to ask for what they really desire in an honest manner. In my lifestyle experience, I have some smart-assed masochists provoke real anger in some dominants. This essentially denotes a deliberate emotional or physical hurting of the dominant to receive the desired response. Such behavior, in my opinion, would not be indicative of a good submissive because it is manipulative, unethical, and it stinks of being non-consensual. Provoking a dominant is not a good idea. As I mentioned with respect to good dominants, domination is likened to surgery, it is a highly refined skill in a highly that takes a long time to learn and master. Good Doms exercise their skill in a highly controlled, thoughtful manner. A good submissive would not deliberately disturb a dominant's emotional balance, as it would be quite dangerous. Even though many dominants exhibit immense amount self-control, we are still human; when we are injured, we hurt. Many subs will say that a raging, out-of-control dominant is definitely terrifying. A dominant friend of mine was purposely provoked by his sub to the point of losing control. He was quite shaken and sorrowful after SM scene was over. It took over two years before he could regain his confidence. I am not going to go into any detail here other than the fact he did erupt. A submissive should not engage seriously in being a smart-assed masochist, unless he or she knows the dominant can deal with that. As I mentioned earlier, being a SAM can be quite hot and erotic under the right circumstances. Under the wrong circumstances, it can be quite disastrous. As I have I said a good and true submissive also has to exercise self-control like a good dominant.

I strongly feel that a good submissive would not engage in the behavior of resistance, at least, until he or she got to know their dominant quite well. Resistance on a submissive's part, especially, if the dominant does not know him or her well can send mixed messages, which can be quite difficult to interpret. When I am in a dominant role in a SM scene with a novice submissive, I will tell my partner that any physical resistance on her part will essentially be successful. I will regard such behavior as a yellow light, or even an immediate termination of the scene. There are some subs that enjoy being forced, and this type of behavior being exhibited can essentially ruin a session, as well as, cost me an occasional play partner. To overcome physical resistance, even if it can be done quite easily, in the mistaken assumption that it is play resistance can definitely lead to disastrous results. I submit that physical resistance must be carefully pre-negotiated. I strongly suggest that any dominant, which is in doubt, back off immediately. Like being a smart-assed masochist, resistance can be erotically hot if engaged in under the right circumstances. Topping from below is another behavior that I feel that good subs should refrain. This denotes a submissive trying to control the scene in progress by making excessive requests, suggestions, and complaints. Of course, this is quite different from the sub that makes suggestions and requests to the dominant, yet leaving it for him or her to decide. It is also different from asking for particular activities, or ruling out particular activities during pre-scene negotiations. Topping from the bottom is typically frowned upon. A submissive should let the dominants make as many decisions as reasonably possible, as the submissive is there to please the dominant. I talked about dominant masochists and submissive sadists on DS and SM archetypes. A submissive sadist enjoys serving their partner by providing them exactly the kind of pain they desire, or as a dominant masochist which connotes those who enjoy receiving exactly, and only the kind of pain they desire. I will say that these personas work well as long as both partners agree in advance that this is the type of scene they want to do. There is an ethical use of the topping from the bottom behavior, which is when an experienced sub is respectfully offering suggestions to a novice dominant. I know that beginner dominants often feel quite insecure, being trained by their more experienced submissive. In my years as a dominant, I have seen few cases where the novice dominant went on to become excellent and outstanding. Also I have seen a few cases where the submissive was abusive to the novice Dom and he or she essentially never realizes his or her potential. I knew one or two to actually leave the SM or DS community entirely. As in the other behaviors I mentioned in the above paragraphs, topping from the bottom can also be erotic and hot under the proper circumstances. Many of you may or may not agree with what I am about say here. I strongly believe that a dominant that can relinquish control and reclaim it at the appropriate time essentially controls control, the essence of power, if you please. A good and true submissive will topping from the bottom in a constructive, circumspect, and respectful manner with regards to a novice dominant.

My vision of the ideal submissive is one who will be able to discern between strength and stubbornness, with a preference for the former. I love that woman who possesses the fiery, feisty nature that dwells deep within her bosom, sassy defiance, if you will. But I also desire a submissive that has strong sense of self-worth, a woman who is happy with herself and can honestly communicate what it is that she desires. My ideal sub will cherish the romance and be totally enthralled by a perilous, dramatic fantasy. She will be unified and complete, special and significant, and she will possess the immense courage to listen to the spirit beyond what she is.




Well said. The insights here are well thought out and written.

I particularly enjoyed your writing on the submissive's initial resistance and how it can prove troublesome to an inexperienced Dom. However, don't you think this initial resistance is natural and is a test of you and herself and that pre-negotiation of something as nebulous and subjective as "resistance" is too imperfect because one cannot pre-determine and pre-negotiate something that is potentially and most likely measured completely different by the Dom and the submissive. So, instead I feel the Dom must remove any initial risk of pushing too hard by first teaching the submissive what a safe word is and emphase that all activity will stop if they use it in an initial meeting which likely excludes BDSM play but likely includes other forms of domination. Using this safe word approach on the initial meeting removes the power of the submissive in this initial meeting to "test" the new Dom and removes any question in the Dom's mind about crossing a line that he may not be able to discern reliably without this technique.

Much of Your "vision" is realistic and I share it. Welcome brother. If you are true to this vision certainly there is at least one Natural Submissive who will live it with you.

Well wishes,
Arturas




HannahLynHeather -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 1:24:07 PM)

quote:

Welcome brother.
oh fuck man, there's no need to insult the guy like that.

quote:

If you are true to this vision certainly there is at least one Natural Submissive who will live it with you.
how's that fucking working out for you, then?




Arturas -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 1:24:56 PM)

quote:

Honestly you'd do better to be worrying about what makes you a good dominant.


What does this mean in the context of a reply to an OP on his vision of a natural submissive? I mean, we all work hard on making ourselves "a good dominant" but don't we also focus on the object of our domination as is the OP when simply sharing his reflections and normal focus on this with his OP?

Thanks,
Arturas




Arturas -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 1:31:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Honestly you'd do better to be worrying about what makes you a good dominant.
fuck ya! that's a really good point. why the fuck do so many dominants seem to obsess over what makes a good submissive, that's her fucking job, not yours. take care of your half of the bargain and the let her take care of hers.



Don't you think we actually need to "worry" about both just as a submissive must "worry" about both so we can both make those important judgements necessary in selecting a partner?





Arturas -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 1:47:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Welcome brother.
oh fuck man, there's no need to insult the guy like that.

quote:

If you are true to this vision certainly there is at least one Natural Submissive who will live it with you.
how's that fucking working out for you, then?



1) Why do you feel this is so and why do you feel insulting me here is on topic and why do you feel using the F word so much is necessary? You know, using such words is a sure sign of insecurity and has no place in this forum, "ask a Master", because certainly Masters must be secure in themselves, do you not think so?

2) It is working well, but why do you feel this is on topic here in "ask a Master" ? Don't you think you should start a thread separately on this if you need to post on that subject?


Well wishes
Arturas




HannahLynHeather -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 1:51:29 PM)

quote:

Don't you think we actually need to "worry" about both just as a submissive must "worry" about both so we can both make those important judgements necessary in selecting a partner?

no, sorry artie, i don't worry about any of that shit. i know the type of dominant i want to be, and i just try be that type. it seems to be working just fucking fine, thanks. maybe if you spent less time worrying about shit that isn't really up to you and concentrated on understanding and improving yourself, you'd have better fucking luck.




Arturas -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 2:04:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Don't you think we actually need to "worry" about both just as a submissive must "worry" about both so we can both make those important judgements necessary in selecting a partner?

no, sorry artie, i don't worry about any of that shit. i know the type of dominant i want to be, and i just try be that type. it seems to be working just fucking fine, thanks. maybe if you spent less time worrying about shit that isn't really up to you and concentrated on understanding and improving yourself, you'd have better fucking luck.


I think that is true for you if you say it is and I respect your view of yourself.

My luck is fantastic but I do work hard at being a Dom and because of this I've enjoyed the company of some very great natural submissives and they me over the years, many of which I met here on CM.
But, why so much interest in me? Perhaps you should cmail me rather than this.

I wish you well,
Arturas




HannahLynHeather -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 2:15:22 PM)

quote:

But, why so much interest in me? Perhaps you should cmail me rather than this.
why the fuck would i cmail you? you wouldn't get it there any more than you do here.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 2:18:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

But, why so much interest in me? Perhaps you should cmail me rather than this.
why the fuck would i cmail you? you wouldn't get it there any more than you do here.

Fuck. I am agreeing with Hannah......




DesFIP -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 2:21:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
So, instead I feel the Dom must remove any initial risk of pushing too hard by first teaching the submissive what a safe word is and emphase that all activity will stop if they use it in an initial meeting which likely excludes BDSM play but likely includes other forms of domination.


The day I need a safeword to get an iced chai and a slice of quiche at an initial meeting at a Starbucks is the day I quit going out.




RapierFugue -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 2:30:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

1) Why do you feel this is so and why do you feel insulting me here is on topic and why do you feel using the F word so much is necessary? You know, using such words is a sure sign of insecurity and has no place in this forum, "ask a Master", because certainly Masters must be secure in themselves, do you not think so?


The only shame is it's too late here for me to phone my broker and go long on popcorn.




CalifChick -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 2:33:08 PM)

It was first posted it in 2008, it appears to be by the same person: http://rylan.fubar.com/the-submissive-nature/b219595-800778

It was stolen in 2009 and posted as a journal entry by another cm'er.

So, nothing new to say in three years? Okie dokie.

Cali





RapierFugue -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 2:36:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

It was first posted it in 2008, it appears to be by the same person: http://rylan.fubar.com/the-submissive-nature/b219595-800778

It was stolen in 2009 and posted as a journal entry by another cm'er.

So, nothing new to say in three years? Okie dokie.


Nice job! :) Have you considered a career in PI or law enforcement? :)

With threads like these I always think the responses are far more entertaining than the OP.




LadyPact -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 2:43:55 PM)

What a difference a month makes, huh, Art?  Seems to Me, just about a month ago, you were working so hard at being a good Dominant that the person collared to you at that time made sure people knew publicly just how poorly your house was running.  Hannah's not the only person who had something to say about the quality of the Dominant themselves. 

See, in the original, the OP mentions his "vision" for the submissive that he would like to find.  That means there *is* no "focusing on the object of the domination" because nobody is filling that place yet.  Until there's an actual person filling that role, you're Dominating a theory.  Not a submissive.  What happens when those expectations don't meet the reality and the dynamic is in a shambles because the human beings involved don't match the perfectly running dynamic they've based that theory on?

Frankly, clip is what some people would term a "natural submissive" in a D/s context.  Not at his job or in other areas of his life before people start that 'submissives are pushovers' bit again, especially when it comes to males.  However, in the context of a dynamic, he naturally wants to please Me.  It's not something he has to learn to want to put My wishes before his own.  That is his natural response.  I didn't have to teach him to realign his thinking to make him that way.  It's how he is and how he's always been.  I'd have to say that is the way Carol responds to Jeff, since I've had the pleasure of meeting them.  I haven't met Hannah and Heather, but I've got reason to believe it works that way in their dynamic, too.

I do happen to think that has something to do with the Dominant, because that's why the submissive responds that way to that particular Dominant.  So, until that submissive comes along, the Dominant has to be the person that someone wants to submit to in that way when they come into their life.



ETA - If I haven't told you lately, Cali, you're the bomb.




leadership527 -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 2:44:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
The day I need a safeword to get an iced chai and a slice of quiche at an initial meeting at a Starbucks is the day I quit going out.

But Des.... What about the roving packs of street doms who patrol the local Starbucks waiting for their next victim? As their dragging you into their van and hauling you off, I'll but THEN you'd wish you could've yelled "RED! RED! RED!!"

Insofar as Arturas' post I think it makes a lot more sense if you assume some sort of disconnect between submission and trust as would be true for the entire segment of the BDSM community that insists on "taking" or "being taken" from the very first moment. In that situation you've got commands being issued sans any demonstration of personal power, trust, or respect-worthiness. They're going to need some way to pull the plug if it turns out they've made a horrid mistake. If, for whatever reasons, plain English doesn't work, then "RED!" surely would, right?




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 3:33:01 PM)

quote:

1) Why do you feel this is so and why do you feel insulting me here is on topic and why do you feel using the F word so much is necessary? You know, using such words is a sure sign of insecurity and has no place in this forum, "ask a Master", because certainly Masters must be secure in themselves, do you not think so?
I would have thought that would have been obvious to you of all people, Sir. She is a woman playing the role of a dominant. Now clearly, as a woman, she is obviously only trying to rebel against the Natural Order of things and deny her natural submissive nature.

The strain of pretending to be something she is not, meaning a dominant person - clearly an impossibility given her gender, is obviously causing her great mental, spiritual and emotional anguish and damage, and this manifests itself in the foul language and the lashing out at the most Naturally Dominant Male available, since she blames him for her plight, as he did not take her in hand and show her her right and proper natural place, kneeling before her better.

So, you see, as you are the most Naturally Dominant and most Naturally Masculine of the Naturally Dominant Males on the site, her behaviour is entirely your fault. You, and you alone, are to blame for the way she carries on. By refusing to bring her to heel through the sheer overwhelming power of your Natural Male Dominance over her weak submissive female nature, you are shirking your responsibilities as a Naturally Dominant Male. You claim to be a Master, yet look at what you have allowed to happen. You really should be ashamed of your self Sir, you need to spend some time reflecting on this. You need to examine your motives, abilities, and yes, even your very nature as a Naturally Dominant Male, to try determine why you have allowed the situation to get so out of control.

For shame, Sir. I speak for all the naturally submissive women when I say we feel we have been cheated by your failure to exert your Natural Male Dominance and having allowed things to get so far from their Natural Order.




GreedyTop -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 3:45:24 PM)

I love you, Heather :)




WinsomeDefiance -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 4:46:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
The day I need a safeword to get an iced chai and a slice of quiche at an initial meeting at a Starbucks is the day I quit going out.

But Des.... What about the roving packs of street doms who patrol the local Starbucks waiting for their next victim? As their dragging you into their van and hauling you off, I'll but THEN you'd wish you could've yelled "RED! RED! RED!!"

Insofar as Arturas' post I think it makes a lot more sense if you assume some sort of disconnect between submission and trust as would be true for the entire segment of the BDSM community that insists on "taking" or "being taken" from the very first moment. In that situation you've got commands being issued sans any demonstration of personal power, trust, or respect-worthiness. They're going to need some way to pull the plug if it turns out they've made a horrid mistake. If, for whatever reasons, plain English doesn't work, then "RED!" surely would, right?


We can just toss in the horde of non-true submissives who throw themselves uninvited at the feet of disapproving dominants - as a distraction, to allow the availed upon submissive a safe escape.




kiwisub12 -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 5:35:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD
I can answer my own question and wow!!! JWriter has AT LEAST 10 other profiles on here!!!! I thought she might have had a total of 3 or 4, but 11????? Why not close them up if you no longer want to use that profile? 11 is...well...do I even need to say it?

Almost makes you wonder if that's some kind of CM record. 




Just as a matter of interest - how do you tell if someone has multiple profiles?




RapierFugue -> RE: The Natural submissive (8/2/2011 5:41:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Just as a matter of interest - how do you tell if someone has multiple profiles?


They get pissy faster?

(Note: question, not statement).




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