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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/21/2004 2:21:09 PM   
NoCalOwner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadeDiva
quote:

ORIGINAL: Destinysskeins
I thoroughly enjoyed reading some of the different viewpoints present and i do admit that i find it interesting that not one poster mentioned any sort of hereditary/genetic/evolutionary predisposition to Dominance in Females unlike the discussions which took place regarding Male Dominance.

Oooooooooh give it time. lol! Someone *will* at some point. I have yet to hear of a debate/group discussion about gender superiority of either gender that *doesn't* spew out studies, historical references, ancient cultures, animal social structures, etc. to support their case.
~ShadeDiva

OK, OK, I would hate to let you two down. I won't attempt the historical part, since most evidence for matriarchal societies is really prehistorical, the rough equivalent of "very badly documented." But there is evolutionary stuff which is only somewhat ambiguous. None of it (that I know of) points to female supremacy per se, but it does point away from Gorilla-style male dominance.

1) Multiple orgasms. If you check out our closest simian relatives, you will see that we do have some things in common with them! One is multiple (female) orgasms, which we share with chimpanzees. The average male chimpanzee is good for about 15-20 seconds of sex, while the female wants several minutes or more. That is why female chimps in estrus often take on a dozen or more males at a time -- and repeat that a few times a day. The fact that female humans also experience multiple orgasms shows that we too are descended from some very naughty poly females. Those of you with gangbang fantasies can stop feeling guilty now.

2) "Coolidge Effect" is seen in some female primates. Example: if chimps are failing to breed, and the females seem to never go into heat, all you have to do is put a new male into their environment. They will often go into estrus or false estrus literally overnight. Another example: Among langurs, patas monkeys and others, it has been observed that when new males invade and join a group, the females frequently go into estrus, and even the pregnant ones may go into false estrus and start mating like mad with the newcomers. Anecdotal evidence for Coolidge Effect among humans of both sexes is ample, so we may consider this another reason to doubt that our ancestors were either long-term monogamous or in male-dominated harems.

3) The rapid and dramatic growth of the human brain, starting around 2 million years ago, has been attributed to females choosing the most intelligent males as sexual partners. While this is still only a debatable theory, it is at least consistent with the evidence above that females have long chosen who they would have sex with, not the other way around (contrary to old "cave man" stereotypes, and the early *ahem* fictions of Jean Auel).

4) Human sperm cells are not designed for monogamy, up to 90% of the sperm are basically running interference, trying to keep competing sperm from other males from fertilizing the egg. Just one more indication that our typical ancestress wasn't living the life of June Cleaver.

5) Sexual dimorphism. Primates who live in male-dominated harems show extreme sexual dimorphism, with the males being just about exactly twice as big as the females. Primates that are promiscuous (chimpanzees, bonobos) show much less sexual dimorphism, around the same level as humans.

Of course, all of these things are very ancient parts of our heritages, and whatever has gone on in the last hundred thousand years is a relative blink of the eye. Whether or not these genetic signs relate much to modern human behavior I will leave to the reader to decide.

I'm sure that there are other clues along these lines, but those are what I can think of off the top of my head. I'll edit my post if I think of any more to add.

< Message edited by NoCalOwner -- 10/21/2004 3:13:11 PM >


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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/22/2004 2:16:39 AM   
dixiedumpling


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If there were no desire on anyone's part to have a partner with big D tendencies, how would you channel your energies? I don't think everyone who possesses big D tendencies would become an over-achiever bossy type. In my own limited experience I have known 1. a police detective, 2. an unemployed IT, 3. make that 2 unemployed ITs, 4. an insurance adjustor, 5. a truck driver, 6. an off-shore oil field worker, 7. a self-employed heat/air installer-repairman. They all had big D tendencies. Among regular posters here there are a variety of jobs held with a variety of responsibilities. And among people with little s tendencies, there are those who are driven to succeed in competitive fields and those who are housewives/husbands. Can't make generalities about it.

And I don't think using criminals as an example of someone looking for and finding a supply is a good example. They are breaking the law and are forcing their demand on a supply. Theives and car-jackers and pedophiles are all forcing themselves on society. Let's hope most big D types look for a willing supply.

There's been a lot of ink written here about what makes us what we are. Most have a theory. I don't. I wonder, but have no idea at what point I became the me I am. I can't say if it was in the womb or through external forces. I do think most are superior to me, but they also just muddle along in life like I do. They have no inner track to peace.

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/22/2004 7:02:22 AM   
Destinysskeins


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Greetings,

Thank You, NoCal, for digging up some interesting facts for us all. *grins* For some obscure reason i enjoy all the evolutionary/historical discussions (even though i don't truly agree with most of them!). *shrugs* makes for fun debate and salves the scientific part of my mind. Best part is - i don't have to look anything up!

dixie, thank you as well for your response and i do agree with you to a large part in that these types of things could be debated for eternity and never a solid conclusion made. Exactly why i think they make good topics! One thing i do have to mention in disagreement - the comment you made about others being superior to you. you're obviously well spoken and intelligent. you've held your own on these boards, which i consider to be populated by some very articulate fellow kinksters, quite well. *grins* and besides - you're a woman, doesn't that make you superior?!

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/22/2004 4:56:12 PM   
NoCalOwner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destinysskeins
Thank You, NoCal, for digging up some interesting facts for us all. *grins* For some obscure reason i enjoy all the evolutionary/historical discussions (even though i don't truly agree with most of them!).

I don't necessarily agree with jumping to a lot of conclusions over them, particularly when they're chosen the way I just did it: all in support of one perspective, none in support of others. The genetic record is filled with bits which don't agree with each other, as various genes have survived long after they seemed to serve any purpose. Despite all of the material which shows, I would go so far as to say proves, that our ancestors were anything but monogamous, that doesn't mean that we have been that way in the last 100,000 years. On the contrary, there is evidence that we are genetically inclined towards monogamy lately.

Example: when we started walking upright, the heat of Africa favored a Zulu sort of build -- tall, thin, with a lot of surface area for dissapating heat through sweat. The chest started changing from apelike to what we think of as human. The hips narrowed to make it easier to walk on two feet. When brain size started increasing like mad a couple of million years ago, smaller hips + babies with giant brains would obviously be a problem for mothers. As a result, proto-human babies were born with far less developed brains than those of other creatures (which are born with brains much closer to adult size), and human childhood became, relatively speaking, extremely long. This was an ideal arrangement from the perspective of passing information along from one generation to the next, doing much to bring us to the level we're at now. It was also an excellent reason for mothers to want some help and support from fathers -- most animal babies will follow their mothers within hours of birth, whereas human babies take over a year to do so. By the dawn of history, we find fathers typically assisting their mate(s) and children much more extensively than you see among apes. And lo and behold, it seemed to work out for us -- despite nearly having become extinct at one point, we have survived.

Not only do we get very mixed messages from our genetics, but our environment plays an equally important role. In fact, they are so interwoven with each other that it's never really one of them working at a time, it is always complex interaction of the two. You can rarely feel sure where one ends and the other begins. So it comes as little surprise that humans are conflicted about their sexuality, or that ideas about it change as conditions change. Even if our genetics in no way favored monogamy or patriarchy (and they may not), the fact that our genes have given us infants that are utterly helpless brings that into play as a crucial part of our environment.

Two hundred years ago childbirth outside of marriage was a catastrophic event for most women, but now, with women being accepted in the workplace, marriage seems more like a possibly helpful option than mandatory. It's not like modern women (in post-industrial countries) face such dangerous conditions that they're always afraid to walk down the street without some big guy protecting them. Things are changing really quickly, and some part of our inner workings is going to be dissatisfied by any possible answer. Some individuals, too.

My own belief is that, socially, we need to hang onto the notion of universal human equality, even if it is a gross oversimplification, and in many ways inadequate. To say that biology makes only one sex suitable rulers is, in my opinion, precisely as useful as a belief in a "master race," and for all the same reasons.

In our own houses, and especially our own bedrooms, no reasons or justifications are needed.

(in reply to Destinysskeins)
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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/22/2004 8:49:07 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoCalOwner


3) The rapid and dramatic growth of the human brain, starting around 2 million years ago, has been attributed to females choosing the most intelligent males as sexual partners. While this is still only a debatable theory, it is at least consistent with the evidence above that females have long chosen who they would have sex with, not the other way around (contrary to old "cave man" stereotypes, and the early *ahem* fictions of Jean Auel).



Perhaps I didn't get the same thing out of Jean Auel's writings. Of course in the orginal book, The Clan of the Cave Bear, the heroine was raised by the Neanderthals before she was finally cursed and left to find her own people, "The Others". The Others reverenced the Great Earth Mother and a Woman was always allowed the choice of whom she "shared pleasures" with.
I know the author did lots of research, and of course it is all fictionalized, but one of the finest series I have ever had the pleasure to read. And no one can prove that these were in fact the practices other than the conclusions drawn from the honored "Doni" (Earth Mother) figures found in the caves.
This, of course, has nothing to do with Supremacy of any sort, but I did wish to clear this up, and mention that perhaps you only read the first book? I love to read, and Ayla is one of My favorite heroines, so I just wanted to put a little plug in here for the whole series.


< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 10/22/2004 8:51:38 PM >


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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/23/2004 8:23:36 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

My own belief is that, socially, we need to hang onto the notion of universal human equality, even if it is a gross oversimplification, and in many ways inadequate. To say that biology makes only one sex suitable rulers is, in my opinion, precisely as useful as a belief in a "master race," and for all the same reasons.


So very well said NoCalOwner.

Let's see what other kind of "supremacy" is out there. Um... White supremacy? Arian supremacy?

Yeah, of course! Just the kind of thinking I want to be associated with.

- LA

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/23/2004 9:00:55 AM   
Indra1000Eyes


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quote:

That said, someone can be in awe of the strength one has, have a great deal of respect for their knowledge, wisdom or experience or just be impressed with a person in general without having to venerate them as dieties.


Well, that largely depends upon someone's notion of "deity." The idea that the divine has to be perfect is a relatively recent invention, after all. If one takes a look at more primordial notions of the sacred, it usually isn't about perfection (moral or otherwise), but rather about Power.

Consider Shiva, revered by many as a Highgod. A lot of the myths about him depict him as a disheveled, wild, poorly dressed yogi who spends his time smoking dope. He wasn't ideal with regards to brahmanical notions of perfection, but he was supremely powerful.

Which isn't to say, of course, being put on a pedastal isn't annoying as hell.
But if someone choses to worship you, it is probably not an issue of perfection but one of the power you happen to wield. We only glimpse the divine in flashes, and many of those intuitions flow from those we feel have a part in our conceptions of the divine. We can look upon an equal and see something within them that touches upon that holiness...and it is that, I would imagine, that someone worships.

Part of someone's beauty is their ability to hold that spark within them without having to be perfect. Unfortunately, as you've said, people often lose sight of that and become disillusioned. Pedastals are dangerous. It's kind of a pity many of us look above to see the divine. It's often standing right beside us...slightly obscured, but no less powerful for all of that.

-I100Is

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/23/2004 10:18:30 AM   
Tristan


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It is my experience that the doms and dommes who consider their gender superior have "issues". Generally, I think, those "issues" involve fear/hatred of the opposite gender. The lifestyle attracts a lot of abusive people who don't understand or care about what a bdsm relationship is really about - an intense emotional connection based on mutual trust and respect (or at least that's my opinion). If I were a submissive, I would consider any gender superior attitude to be a red flag.

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/23/2004 5:04:39 PM   
ThornBlood


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quote:

And on that note, I am a strong proponent of "Feline Supremacy" even when I am giving mine a bath.


LOL.. well.. ESPECIALLY when giving mine a bath. (Trim those nails first!!!)

John

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/24/2004 8:08:29 AM   
ShadeDiva


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All I'm gonna say is...

See? Told ya it would eventually get added in!

LOL

~ShadeDiva

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/24/2004 8:53:41 PM   
MistressDREAD


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This is a easy one


God told Adam that
Eve was there to
keep Him company
if He only obeyed
his laws and rules
Eve however knew
that she was not
there to keep Him
company but to
do as She wanted
when She wanted
and did so when
she convinced Adam
to picke the apple
off the tree against
the rules and it was
of Her hands so
Adam relented and
as strong as Adam was
He succumbed to Eves
Superiority in the ability
to take over and control
a situation any situatioon
like eating the forbidden fruit

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/25/2004 5:04:11 AM   
harpomrx


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Female Supremacy plays a significant role in my fantasy life. But it's important to realize the difference between fantasy and reality.

i used to be a passionate believer in real Female Superiority. i believed that Women should rule the world, that Women should be served by males and have complete power of them, that Women should be worshipped by males, and blah, blah, blah...

Then i woke up one day and realized that what i really passionately believed was that attractive Women should rule the world, that attractive Women should be served by males and have complete power of them, that attractive Women should be worshipped by males...

Okay, so i was a hypocrite -- is that so unusual these days? At least i've pretty much grown out of it. How many other hypocrites (many of whom are in real positions of power) can say the same?

i think most guys with Female Superiority fantasies are really into the OWK fantasy: model-quality young Women dressed like a 1980s wet dream ruling over world where men are subhuman objects trained to serve Them, and to be available for Them to severely abuse for Their own fun and amusement. Well -- it's a fantasy.

That being said, i'm interested in how the Dommes here feel about power and worship rituals within a BDSM relationship. What does it do for You when You decree that a sub should kneel before You, or perform some sort of arbitrary action under preordained circumstances You decide upon? Within the boundaries of a relationship (play, r/t or otherwise) do You like worship rituals? Or maybe we should start a new thread about rituals...? Anybody interested?

harpo

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/25/2004 4:07:50 PM   
MistressDREAD


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go for it harpo I have a shit load ~smiles~

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RE: Female Supremacy - 10/26/2004 12:05:20 PM   
dixiedumpling


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MistressDREAD,
That was a pretty cool explanation. I'm going to pass it along to my minister (also a woman!).

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Toodles,
dixiedumpling

My mind is no place to play alone. Anna Pigeon as written by Nevada Barr

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