MasterJaguar01
Posts: 2346
Joined: 12/2/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:
ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01
1) We have a debt ceiling. Rather than asinine, I shall refer to it as ridiculous. It is a limit on the US Treasuries ability to fund (through borrowing (the sale of US Treasuries)) policies that our Congress have already created. It is ridiculous, because it is poorly understood by too many people (PARTICULARLY by members of the Tea Party). It is NOT a limit on new appropriations. It has nothing to do with "cutting spending". It is ridiculous (I am ridiculing it right now) because it is a limit that can't be enforced. (e.g. We can't NOT raise it when we need to. So what is the use of the limit? (answer below)) The limit should be BEFORE Congress votes on bills. Not after. When John Boehner cried like a schoolgirl, BEGGING his fellow house members to approve Medicare Part D and funnel our tax money to pay full price to his Big Pharma donors, rather than let Medicare negotiate on the free-market, there should have been a limit. Congress should have simply said "John, go home and cry." I agree. So far nothing that makes my post asinine
OK... SO you agree that the debt ceiling is ridiculous and that the Tea Party does not understand what it means. Wonderful
2) If the ridiculous debt limit were raised via a one-line bill (just as it has dozens of time before):
A) S&P would not have downgraded us. Absolutely wrong. All three agencies would have downgrade us if it werent for some attention apid to the budget deficit. S&P TOLD everyone this was coming without at least $4 trillion in debt reduction over 10 years
It is actually 100% correct. Regardless of the earlier sabre-rattling, the underlying reason for the downgrade, was our government's (specifically the Tea Party) brinkmanship (using our debt ceiling as a bargaining chip). Allow me to quote S&P:
The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as
America's governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective,
and less predictable than what we previously believed. The statutory debt
ceiling and the threat of default have become political bargaining chips in
the debate over fiscal policy.
B) The entire world would not have watched this childish debate. Yeah, the would have watched Obama's out of control spending, a downgrade possibly below AA+, and laughed the whole time.
I am not sure what "out of control" spending you are talking about. The only significant spending was the Stimulus package (which consisted of tax cuts, unemployment insurance extensions, and some infrastructure spending. It saved us from a much worse depression (mostly from keeping the unemployed able to look for jobs and off of welfare), gave the middle class a bit of spending money, and saved a hell of a lot of teachers, police, and fire fighter jobs. It was a response to a financial crisis (mass layoffs, caused by businesses losing their access to credit). It was hyped forever by the Obama administration as this incredible jobs bill. LOL I remember all of the Obama minions on all of the talk show making up numbers on how many jobs ("saved or created" was the term). They would come up with a different number 4 times a day. Obama made some absurd claim that it would reduce unemployment to some number. (8%??? There was NO way he could have known that)
The bottom line:is: It was a wonderful and necessary piece of legislation. It was hyped and claimed to be something it was not (mainly a "Stimulus" package. It was really a safety net package)
There would have been no downgrade, and no laughing (except a bit of snickering from the Chinese)
C) The market would not have tanked. The stock that I am most heavily invested in would have syrocketed again on its latest earnings report (one which I have been waiting on, for over 2 months. Thanks a bunch Tea Party!)
the market drop has NOTHING to do with the debt ceiling/deficits. Once again if there was a market concern about either it would have hit the bond market, it hasnt.
That's my point. The market drop had nothing to do with the deficits and EVERYTHING to do with the brinkmanship of the Tea Party
D) We could have been concentrating on a FAR more pressing crisis: UNEMPLOYMENT Yes, if the Dems had done there job and actually passed a budget in the last two years we could have.
That's rather silly. The Dems couldn't pass ANYTHING. Even with a majority in both houses. The Republicans filibuster EVERYTHING in the Senate. They laugh giddily as they say "That's the way we do it in the Senate now"
E) Congress (on both sides) would not have come up with this idiotic bill in a hurry, which does almost nothing to cut spending, and is estimated to kill 323,000 jobs. Our debt is a HUGE problem and needs to be addressed by carefully implementing the recommendations of the Simpson-Bowles commission (and/or studying the issue even further if necessary). It simply is NOT the most pressing issue right now. LMAO. This bill accomplished exactly what you are recommending should have been done. So if it is idiotic, so are you.
Point Taken. I wasn't clear. What I meant to say was that the process should have been carefully and methodically considered, rather than under threat of a default.
The Tea Party is directly responsible for A through E (and I am sure there is an F through Z once we discover the full disastrous effect). yes , it is, and therefore full CREDIT should be given tot them
????????????I need to get a thesaurus. What is beyond asinine?
Answer to the question above: What is the use of debt ceiling? A new way to hold the country's full faith and credit hostage for political gain. IMO: That is Treason. (There ya go Ann Coulter. That's why they call it Treason) Same thing I said earlier or in another thread, thats why a BBA is needed
As Termyn8r says: "If you don't understand the issue, shut the fuck up" The Tea Party most definitely does NOT understand the issue. Nice try. First, dont ever expect credibility quoting Termy. Second, what you got correct in your post says the opposite. The Tea Party forced the issue, and did the best they could holding only one branch. The super Congress has been warned. Listen to the Tea Party or face a further downgrade and real problems.
At least you gave an honest, albeit largely incorrect response. Better than most here. Kudos
My post was 100% accurate and supportive of my overall point (perhaps with one exception where I was not being as clear as I could have been).
My point is the following:
1) The Tea Party does not understand what the debt ceiling is.
2) The Debt Ceiling is ridiculous.
You claim to agree with #1, and #2
3) The Tea Party held our full faith and credit hostage for political gain (which both did NOT significantly benefit our debt crisis. Further, by most estimates will have a significant negative impact to our job situation). Their political gain is America's loss.
4) As a result of #3, our credit rating was downgraded
5) As a result of #3, our market tanked
6) You celebrate 1-5 and give the Tea Party full credit.
I apologize for the limit of my vocabulary. I'll go with asinine.
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RE: S&P downgrades U.S. credit rating for first time - 
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