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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 5:35:02 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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i think that might have more to do with the Dominants in question than with the women being "too attractive to be submissive." he might be making assumptions about her because he's insecure. if she doesn't ask "how high" when he says "jump off a bridge" his insecurity could color that to mean "she's only disobeying because she's too hot for me." 
but of course, people who are generally very attractive have a tendency to expect to be treated a certain way; they've been treated that way since they were kids, so they're used to it. as far as scientific studies go, there have been studies showing that even attractive children are treated better, even in relation to their own siblings. these children are more likely to hear how pretty they are, how good or smart they are, etc etc. so when you grow up that way, i imagine you expect it to just be there all the time.

people who are very aware of their attractiveness know it's a commodity and some of them will bank on it. they look for partners who are "in their league" in one way or another; similar looks, financial means, or some other factor. but i think a lot of men who are with conventionally beautiful partners feel that she is more likely to cheat, which flips on their insecurity and possessiveness switches.

and like it or not, the world is what it is; girls who are considered less attractive usually feel they have to fall into the "but she's got a good personality" category, so maybe there is more of a tendency to express more submissiveness, at least at first, in hoping you'll catch someone. there's more of a tendency to settle when someone finding you attractive isn't all that common. not fishing for compliments here at all, but in my last relationship, it actually took me a while to accept that he thought i was beautiful; i thought he just thought i was interesting enough to stick around with. =p he was VERY attractive to me, and had a bunch of chicks following him around, and i thought he was way out of my league.
conventional beauty is kind of threatening, and it polarizes people. i think women generally assume that ALL MEN only want conventionally beautiful women, which isn't true at all. there may be science showing which factors translate to beauty for most people, but i really do believe it's in the eye of the beholder. and it can be seen differently once you know a person well enough to factor in other aspects of their personality.

and not every conventionally attractive person is free of insecurity and overflowing with confidence; sometimes it's the exact opposite. they feel like they only have partners because of their looks, or they don't see what others see. it sounds silly but sometimes they even feel like all the compliments and jokes about their attractiveness is a burden. there's a girl i know locally who is ridiculously attractive by most people's standards. she's in her early twenties, weighs maybe 120 lbs, she's got long blonde hair and is in pretty great shape. some of our other friends constantly joke about sending her out to meet people for them because she's the most attractive; any time she's around it's basically a barrage of comments about how attractive she is to men, and she has said before that those kinds of comments bother her. plus, she has a legitimate concern that people don't take her seriously, and that all the comments about her negatively affect the self-esteem of others around her who don't get them.




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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 5:43:47 AM   
heartfeltsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manawyddan

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
This makes a great deal of sense, one doesn't have to be attractive to be manipulative and if something exists in a relationship that one party doesn't want to give up, they will put up with a great deal to keep the aspect that they want to keep.


Reading through the thread, this was essentially the point I was going to make. People don't only want one thing out of a relationship. Most of us have made compromises of one sort or another. A few months ago I traveled cross-country for an extremely hot and sexy long weekend with a woman who is not close to submissive or masochistic enough for me. But I love and care for her, and the sex was hot! She would make a poor choice for a partner unless she could reconciled to a poly relationship, but I would head out there again in a heartbeat.


To a degree that encapsulates what he is doing, the sex is hot, to use his words, the best sex of his entire life, but she isn't submissive or masochistic enough (again his words). He is poly, but is currently only with her. And again according to him, although she says she is poly, he doesn't think she would "accept" him having anyone else. He wants the hotness and the submission acrossed the board in any submissive he has, not separated into different ones. If that makes any sense.

Thanks for your reply,
heartfelt

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 5:45:02 AM   
heartfeltsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Actually maybe a better way to ask the question that I am wondering is as follows: If the sex with your s-type is phenomenal, would that have any bearing on how obedient or respectful you would expect him or her to be. Or would you let some disobedience or un-submissive behavior slide because of the great sex?


Actually...in our case, the sex is phenomenal because I am obedient and respectful and submissive to him.


And that makes perfect sense to me and in my opinion is what I would want in any relationship that I am in. Thanks for your response.

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 5:49:46 AM   
heartfeltsub


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Thank you ChatteParfaitt for your response. It was informative and helpful and I would agree with a great deal of it. I have tried, politely, to tell him that this relationship is detrimental to him and his Dominance and in part he agrees. He is just not willing to give up the best sex he has ever had, so I think in part he lies to himself. He will say that she is submissive when it is just the two of them. Because if I am there, it isn't just the two of them, I don't ever get to see that behavior, I just get to see the disrespect and yelling and screaming and her telling him what to do. So that makes me doubt that she is ever really submissive and obedient.

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Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 6:22:29 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you ChatteParfaitt for your response. It was informative and helpful and I would agree with a great deal of it. I have tried, politely, to tell him that this relationship is detrimental to him and his Dominance and in part he agrees. He is just not willing to give up the best sex he has ever had, so I think in part he lies to himself. He will say that she is submissive when it is just the two of them. Because if I am there, it isn't just the two of them, I don't ever get to see that behavior, I just get to see the disrespect and yelling and screaming and her telling him what to do. So that makes me doubt that she is ever really submissive and obedient.


If she yells at him and tells him what to do, sorry, I don't see that as being the fault of the submissive. Why is he putting up with that?

B/c I can tell you how long my dom would put up with that behavior...umm...two seconds?

BTW, he would not be yelling and screaming back, he would calmly and with excruciating politeness tell me my behavior was inappropriate. And he'd expect me to have a fast learning curve. Again, no yelling if I continued with the bad behavior, it would be: you appear to not understand your place with me, which means I have to reevaluate this relationship, b/c we don't appear to be well suited.

He's *never* had to tell me that, b/c I know exactly the response I'd get.

In my mind, this sub appears to be screaming for someone to take control of her. But that is my opinion based on limited info.

Best, Chatte

.




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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 6:38:04 AM   
catize


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I guess what bothers me about the original question is the sense that it is her fault, and he is not looking at his own complicity in this relationship. This is not her problem. Has he ever told her his definition of submission and how “important” it is to him? If he has and continues to accept her behavior, then once again, I'd say he has made his choice. Perhaps she doesn't have a submissive bone in her body, nothing wrong with that. But if that is the case, then he needs to be strong enough to walk away. Since he doesn't seem able to do that, then he needs to quit bitching!

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 7:16:02 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
It is probably confusing because I wrote it in a confusing manner. The gist of the original question is the premise of this particular Dominant friend of mine and another Dominant that he knows is that it is impossible to get a submissive who is highly attractive, very sexually compatible and actually submissive and obedient. And I was wondering if anyone else had seen the same thing, because I found the premise incorrect and also offensive, that someone is only really submissive and obedient when he or she isn't attractive enough to get a "mate" another way. I wrote the question badly.

Just how attractive and good looking are these 2 Doms? I personally do not find many very attractive, not just Doms but most men in general...

I seem to recall a study where men thought of themselves as much better looking than they actually are, which means they are looking for women that are way out of their league. Imo, there are beautiful submissives out there, its just that these guys arent good enough looking to attract those women so they have to settle for good looking unsubmissive women. lol

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 7:22:27 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

It is probably confusing because I wrote it in a confusing manner. The gist of the original question is the premise of this particular Dominant friend of mine and another Dominant that he knows is that it is impossible to get a submissive who is highly attractive, very sexually compatible and actually submissive and obedient. And I was wondering if anyone else had seen the same thing, because I found the premise incorrect and also offensive, that someone is only really submissive and obedient when he or she isn't attractive enough to get a "mate" another way. I wrote the question badly.

Hopefully that makes more sense,
heartfelt

Ahhh, ok. That clears up the confusion quite a bit. Thank you

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 7:36:25 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you ChatteParfaitt for your response. It was informative and helpful and I would agree with a great deal of it. I have tried, politely, to tell him that this relationship is detrimental to him and his Dominance and in part he agrees. He is just not willing to give up the best sex he has ever had, so I think in part he lies to himself. He will say that she is submissive when it is just the two of them. Because if I am there, it isn't just the two of them, I don't ever get to see that behavior, I just get to see the disrespect and yelling and screaming and her telling him what to do. So that makes me doubt that she is ever really submissive and obedient.

has she actually represented herself as a sub? or did he meet he meet her out someplace and she is vanilla but cuz of the hottest sex he has ever had, now he is trying to convert her into a bdsm submissive?

I really dont know why you would get frustrated or whatever by what he does/doesnt do about her, its his life to live as he sees fit and he is doing what he wants to do.

But i gotta say, nothing worse than a whiney Dom, it actually sounds to me like its his way of bragging about the hot chick and hottest sex rather than looking for advice. LOL

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 8:03:42 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

That makes a great deal of sense and something that I can agree with entirely. Thank you for your further explanation and you are quite correct it is not a "lifestyle" issue, it is a people issue.

heartfelt


And here is the problem. People come to this site and ask questions that indicate an expectation of different behaviors from people into kink or "lifestyle" than people who are not.

The question is just patently ridiculous; being very attractive has no bearing on being submissive or Dominant since being perceived as attractive is purely subjective. You know, the eye of the beholder thing?

I really wish people would deal with their individual realities rather than trying to get validation based on the thoughts of a collective "lifestyle" group.

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 8:53:10 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

A recent conversation with a Dominant friend of mine has sparked this post and series of questions. He was commenting not only about His relationship with His s-type but also speaking about a conversation that He had had with another Dominant friend of His. He is finding that while the sex is phenomenal with this particular s-type, that she really isn't that submissive. She is BDSM model and former stripper, so fairly attractive and the girl that the other Dominant was talking about falls in the same category of being fairly attractive and highly sexual.

So the question that arose is this: Is there an inversely proportional attractiveness to submissive ratio, ie the more physically attractive a person is, the less submissive that person is or is it something unique to these two cases? Another question that arose was which was more important phenomenal sex and attractiveness or phenomenal submission. Do you see many people who have both, who are highly physically attractive and also highly submissive and obedient?

Thank you in advance for your responses,

heartfelt


Cripes. I'm a pig. I go for gals who are hot, submissive AND slutty. Now that's what I call a worthy trifecta.


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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 4:44:28 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Is there an inversely proportional attractiveness to submissive ratio, ie the more physically attractive a person is, the less submissive that person is or is it something unique to these two cases?

one fucking word for you: heather

draw your own conclusions


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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 4:52:22 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
It is probably confusing because I wrote it in a confusing manner. The gist of the original question is the premise of this particular Dominant friend of mine and another Dominant that he knows is that it is impossible to get a submissive who is highly attractive, very sexually compatible and actually submissive and obedient. And I was wondering if anyone else had seen the same thing, because I found the premise incorrect and also offensive, that someone is only really submissive and obedient when he or she isn't attractive enough to get a "mate" another way. I wrote the question badly.

Just how attractive and good looking are these 2 Doms? I personally do not find many very attractive, not just Doms but most men in general...

I seem to recall a study where men thought of themselves as much better looking than they actually are, which means they are looking for women that are way out of their league. Imo, there are beautiful submissives out there, its just that these guys arent good enough looking to attract those women so they have to settle for good looking unsubmissive women. lol


LOL, yes, always makes me laugh when you overhear guys and they are discussing women, most of them will be so dismissive about women that are actually not bad looking and think that their beer belly and bad breath is at least worthy of a act walk model who's also a sex goddess but should never look at another guy and on top of it be an excellent cook, housekeeper and of course have a substantial income...

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/7/2011 5:15:34 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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^^ haha, you hit the nail on the head, LC. =p 

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/8/2011 12:21:01 PM   
heartfeltsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I guess what bothers me about the original question is the sense that it is her fault, and he is not looking at his own complicity in this relationship. This is not her problem. Has he ever told her his definition of submission and how “important” it is to him? If he has and continues to accept her behavior, then once again, I'd say he has made his choice. Perhaps she doesn't have a submissive bone in her body, nothing wrong with that. But if that is the case, then he needs to be strong enough to walk away. Since he doesn't seem able to do that, then he needs to quit bitching!


I mostly agree with your statement. She does claim to be somewhat submissive but you are correct, in mostly falls on him and what behavior he will allow in the relationship. I have told him in as many words that he is trading submission for sex and is lying to himself that he can't have it all in one person. He may not be able to have it all in this particular person, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Thank you for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/8/2011 12:26:24 PM   
heartfeltsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you ChatteParfaitt for your response. It was informative and helpful and I would agree with a great deal of it. I have tried, politely, to tell him that this relationship is detrimental to him and his Dominance and in part he agrees. He is just not willing to give up the best sex he has ever had, so I think in part he lies to himself. He will say that she is submissive when it is just the two of them. Because if I am there, it isn't just the two of them, I don't ever get to see that behavior, I just get to see the disrespect and yelling and screaming and her telling him what to do. So that makes me doubt that she is ever really submissive and obedient.

has she actually represented herself as a sub? or did he meet he meet her out someplace and she is vanilla but cuz of the hottest sex he has ever had, now he is trying to convert her into a bdsm submissive?

I really dont know why you would get frustrated or whatever by what he does/doesnt do about her, its his life to live as he sees fit and he is doing what he wants to do.

But i gotta say, nothing worse than a whiney Dom, it actually sounds to me like its his way of bragging about the hot chick and hottest sex rather than looking for advice. LOL


She does classify herself as partly submissive (identifies as switch) and no he didn't meet her in a vanilla environment. My frustration is coming from seeing his reputation and who he is as a Dominant brought down by this relationship. I know it is none of my business, he is a grown man and he will do what he will do. Part of my frustration also comes from his supposition that he can't have both or that attractiveness and submission are mutually exclusive.

Thank you for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/8/2011 12:37:14 PM   
SuzeCheri


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She's just a brat, trust me, I know one when I see one.

Oh really Suze?

Yes, I have a lifetime of experience in that regard.

Oh really? And where did you get this vast experience in brat spotting?

My mirror.

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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/8/2011 12:40:21 PM   
Awareness


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  Oh, that's easy.  His own self-worth isn't in sufficient shape for him to believe she can be easily replaced.  Thus he tolerates bullshit that he wouldn't in a less-attractive, more replaceable woman.  And she can sense this because his manner, body language, tone and what he puts up with betrays it.

It's all down to him.  Period.


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RE: Inversely Proportional? - 8/8/2011 4:29:38 PM   
subbingforyou


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The highly accomplished CEO who wants a mistress to humiliate him in private is so common it's become a cliche.

For a lot of people, BDSM is a matter of balance -- they use it to provide the yin to the yang of other parts of their life.



--The bottom line is that people who are confident don't submit as easily in life (let alone bdsm dynamic) as others. They don't settle, they have higher standards, they know what they are worth and know that others have to work for it. So maybe in some cases that confidence comes from physical/sexual attractiveness, but it can come from other sources as well.
==

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