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The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 10:27:08 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		The budget deficit climbed during the Bush years, and has continued to climb during the Obama administration.  So to blame one party is absurd.  Both parties are guilty.

The problem is the NO ONE can agree on how to solve the problem.

The Republicans are stuck on cutting spending, which admittedly needs to be done, but the programs that the Republicans want to cut are programs that should not be touched, such as social security, education, medicare etc.

The Democrats want to raise taxes, which makes sense, increase revenue to cover debts.  HOWEVER, Democrats seem to come up with spending programs that would offset the new revenues.

Now, from my point of view, it would seem that the logical way to proceed would be to increase taxes, primarily the corporate tax loopholes (how many big corporations got away with a zero tax liability?) and coming up with a tax code that does not need a PHD in Accounting to understand.

And while raising taxes, cut spending in areas where we over spend, such as Defense, and cutting agencies that have overlapping areas of responsibility.  In other words, and this is coming from a liberal, streamline the fucking government.

Social Security, as designed, is supposed to be self supporting, as is medicare, so leave that alone.  

The Education system in the United States is lacking, look at the ratings of US students versus other countries.

And if other countries are going to use protective tariffs to help their industries, the US should do the same to protect producers in the US.  In other words, the US should play by the same rules as other countries.

Finally, one question, how many countries besides the US maintains Military installations outside their borders?  I am sure we could bring the majority of our military back to the states and save a good percentage of the defense budget.


_____________________________

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 10:52:07 AM   
youcanchoose


Posts: 7
Joined: 6/23/2011
Status: offline 		The simplest solution is create addition tax brackets over $250,00/year level and restore the capital gains and estate taxes, in addition to what you suggested.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 11:26:54 AM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline 		A combination of increased revenue and spending cuts is required.

The Republicans threaten to hold their breath like spooled kids with the refusal of any taxes or increase in revenue streams.  The Democrats pout and threaten to take their toys and go home with the refusal to cut their pet projects.

They stand hand in hand each giving the other a perfect excuse to do nothing.  "well we tried, but they won't"


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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 12:04:09 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		Yes, government needs to be streamlined. And people who work for governmental agencies need to know how to do their jobs and do them well.

I was recently talking with a coworker who told me she had gone with a client to the office of vocational rehabilitation. In PA this office under the control of the Dept. of Labor and they provide services to disabled people in the form of testing, training and other needs to the disabled. Anyway, this coworker was telling me that she went with a client thinking he might receive financial assistance in purchasing a new pair of eye glasses because he is virtually blind with his old ones as well as some IQ, interest and achievement testing as a precursor to job training. Instead, the worker at the rehab office said something to the effect of, "we pay for everything, what do you want to do?" This kid had no idea what services he might want, or what kind of training he might want. He didn't even know if he wants to go to college or simply a two-year vocational school. He has no idea what he to do for the next 10-20 years to earn a living. This is a waste of money. I've heard stories like this, or ones in which voc rehab has pretty much pushed a person into training for a job they were not interested in or had no hope of employment because the field was already saturated.

The tax code needs to be simplified. Another poster on here continues to argue for a 10% flat tax. But that 10% would cost me over $2 grand a year. It is much harder for me to come with $2 grand than it is for a millionaire to come up with $100,000. Proportionately, it sounds nice, but people at the lower end of the economic spectrum simply can't afford it. That is why deductions, the "earned income credit" and so many loopholes were first created in the first place. Today those very loopholes seem to help the wealthiest among us more than those they were created for.

Slash the military. Close foreign bases and bring our troops home. And make it a law that Congress can not pay for anything the military says they don't need or want. Too many politicians fight for and pay for military toys just to keep the military contractors happy, not because those toys are necessary or even a good use of our tax dollars.

Improve education, not by pouring more money into it, but by changing the system and teaching our children how to use critical thinking--yes this skill can be taught. Also take steps to change the educational system from its traditional forms. We have had the same type of public education system almost from the beginning. Even as we moved from one room school houses to mega-learning centers, the system has essentially remained in tact. In today's world, there is no reason for most students to be out of school for two months over the summer; no reason for an essentially 6 hour school day. With most fo today's families being either two-income or single parent, the need for the education system to reflect our modern world is paramount. Why are we stuck in the past on this? In many other countries, students are in school at dawn and return home after dusk. With homework. They attend school year round with a single day to a few days off for national and religious holidays. US students attend school for about 180 days per year--that's half the year they are not in class.

Tariffs, tariffs and more tariffs. But at the same time, provide tax breaks to companies that create and keep jobs in the US.

And finally, return us to the Clinton-era tax levels at the very least.


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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 12:41:59 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		One minor error in the OP: Budget deficits declined in the GWB administration from the end of the 2001 recession until the economic problems in 2008.

The biggest problem in the OP is the characterization of SS and Medicare however. Yes, they are DESIGNED to be self-sustaining, but they arent. No long term budget solution that doesnt include changes to both of them is doomed to fail.

Streamlining the tax code and getting rid of the social engineering is obviously needed....combined with DECREASES in the top marginal rates and the cap gains tax. And any tax solutions MUST be long term, not temporary. The only way to jumpstart use of credit is (relative) certainty over the future. If fixes expire or are easily changed then nothing at all will work.

_____________________________

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to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 1:00:57 PM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		I think 2001 to 2008 could be the very same time "the bubble" was inflating.  It took all it could until it burst in 2008.  So whatever was happening previous to 2008 was not happening in the right direction IMO.  Things didn't just happen over night.  It was a result of oversights, deregulation (damn that word, I know), and a LOT of military expenses, not to mention a lack of revenue as a result of tax breaks. 

I think taking a few steps back, analyzing without emotion or bias, cutting on spending (and yes, that would mean looking hard at the big 3 to see where money can be cut and/or saved there), and I hate to say it, taxing.  For the record...I never really got the logic behind the Bush tax cuts expiring equaling raising taxes.  It's NOT raising taxes.  It's letting a break expire.

I think all revisions should be long term...no 6 month, a year...or until such a time...making you have to back track and revisit a done deal.


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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 1:22:04 PM   
flcouple2009


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Joined: 1/8/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
One minor error in the OP: Budget deficits declined in the GWB administration from the end of the 2001 recession until the economic problems in 2008.


You are hysterical


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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 2:54:52 PM   
MasterG2kTR


Posts: 6677
Joined: 8/7/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

One minor error in the OP: Budget deficits declined in the GWB administration from the end of the 2001 recession until the economic problems in 2008.

The biggest problem in the OP is the characterization of SS and Medicare however. Yes, they are DESIGNED to be self-sustaining, but they arent. No long term budget solution that doesnt include changes to both of them is doomed to fail.

Streamlining the tax code and getting rid of the social engineering is obviously needed....combined with DECREASES in the top marginal rates and the cap gains tax. And any tax solutions MUST be long term, not temporary. The only way to jumpstart use of credit is (relative) certainty over the future. If fixes expire or are easily changed then nothing at all will work.


Have you been dipping into the STUPID pills again?? Or did someone come by and beat you with the stupid stick??

The biggest budget deficits this nation has seen occurred under the GWB watch. He took over a balanced budget and trashed it within the first six months.

Yes indeed it is designed to be self-sustaining, but those fucking idiot republicans borrow money out of it every fucking chance they get (just like they did with the bill passed last week). Then they have the balls to come and tell us that SS is going broke and we have to end it. Who the fuck do you think you're kidding? You're as bad as those you support!

Sure that's the best idea I've ever heard. NOT!! Give more money to the rich who pay a fraction of what everybody else pays???


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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 3:01:46 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		No even the Dems agree that the biggest deficits in history have been under Obama, that doesn't excuse previous deficits but it is the reality.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 3:06:11 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

One minor error in the OP: Budget deficits declined in the GWB administration from the end of the 2001 recession until the economic problems in 2008.

The biggest problem in the OP is the characterization of SS and Medicare however. Yes, they are DESIGNED to be self-sustaining, but they arent. No long term budget solution that doesnt include changes to both of them is doomed to fail.

Streamlining the tax code and getting rid of the social engineering is obviously needed....combined with DECREASES in the top marginal rates and the cap gains tax. And any tax solutions MUST be long term, not temporary. The only way to jumpstart use of credit is (relative) certainty over the future. If fixes expire or are easily changed then nothing at all will work.


I really hate to burst your bubble, BUT Bush added over $4 trillion to the debt.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500803_162-4486228-500803.html  read it for yourself.


_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 3:15:30 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The budget deficit climbed during the Bush years, and has continued to climb during the Obama administration.  So to blame one party is absurd.  Both parties are guilty.

The problem is the NO ONE can agree on how to solve the problem.

The Republicans are stuck on cutting spending, which admittedly needs to be done, but the programs that the Republicans want to cut are programs that should not be touched, such as social security, education, medicare etc.

The Democrats want to raise taxes, which makes sense, increase revenue to cover debts.  HOWEVER, Democrats seem to come up with spending programs that would offset the new revenues.

Now, from my point of view, it would seem that the logical way to proceed would be to increase taxes, primarily the corporate tax loopholes (how many big corporations got away with a zero tax liability?) and coming up with a tax code that does not need a PHD in Accounting to understand.

And while raising taxes, cut spending in areas where we over spend, such as Defense, and cutting agencies that have overlapping areas of responsibility.  In other words, and this is coming from a liberal, streamline the fucking government.

Social Security, as designed, is supposed to be self supporting, as is medicare, so leave that alone.  

The Education system in the United States is lacking, look at the ratings of US students versus other countries.

And if other countries are going to use protective tariffs to help their industries, the US should do the same to protect producers in the US.  In other words, the US should play by the same rules as other countries.

Finally, one question, how many countries besides the US maintains Military installations outside their borders?  I am sure we could bring the majority of our military back to the states and save a good percentage of the defense budget.



Ok...now exhale and blow out the pot smoke. 

On the post regarding an S & P downgrade, I asked Louve to answer from very simple questions.  They were as follows:

What do you think the impact would be of Obama raising unemployment taxes from 8% to 13%?

What do you think the impact would be of Obama eliminating the mortgage interest deduction?

What do you think the impact would be if your health benefits, which now have to appear on your taxes (the first step towards taxation, by the way) actually got taxed?

What do you think the impact would be if Obama ended the triple tax free status of municipal bonds.

A gnat named nottertail answered with typical intellect that we should only talk about things that have happened as opposed to things our president wants to happen.  And so I put those questions to you, providing you can clear the smoke enough to see the screen of your computer, to answer the questions.

Let me tell you dimwitted libs this though in advance...TODAY the dems announced a plan to leave the payroll tax rate unchanged.  Does that tell you anything?  (Other than I was right that it would be a disaster!)

"ohhhhhhhh both parties are to blame....ooooooo"  Look up the debt chart posted by the AP last week and see the remarkable and unprecedented (except for FDR during WW II) additions O'scumbag has made to our debt levels!!!!

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 3:43:31 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"You are hysterical "

Thanks for handling that, saved me a couple of keystrokes. Have you considered the root of the word hysterectomy ? Keep that on file for future use.

I think erie made some sense here, but one thing.......

"changing the system and teaching our children how to use critical thinking--yes this skill can be taught."

True. But the ironic thing is that money can't help at all. I don't think our politicians are capable of critical thinking. I don't doubt that they are self serving MFs who don't give a shit about us, but if they would think about it they would stop putting the goose that layed their golden eggs into a fucking meat grinder. Really, if I were a greedy politician, caring only for myself, I would focus on keeping this economy healthy and fit - for me and mine to exploit. That fact is that they gone so much too far that I know they're stupid. They were on the gravy train but the idiots sold the fucking tracks.

T^T

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 4:16:37 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I know you didn't address me here but here goes anyway.

"What do you think the impact would be of Obama raising unemployment taxes from 8% to 13%? "

One thing to realize here is that really only about 50% of the people in this country actually work, on the books and pay taxes. And UI only covers so many people for so long. If the jobs don't come back this will accomplish nothing but to burden the exact people who could use a bit of the load taken off. That's five percent of your income, and there are no deductions. It's worse than paying SE tax for some. I made well over a quarter mil in the last seven years or so, technically unemployed the whole time. But did that make me among the counted of that supposed XX percent they say are unemployed ? Maybe people like me should be shot, but that's the kind of people who started this country. And it won't be us who finish it.

"What do you think the impact would be of Obama eliminating the mortgage interest deduction?"

A hell of alot less than it would've a few years ago. That's because a hell of alot less people are paying mortgage interest. A business can deduct ALL interest, why not private individuals ? Because it's social engineering which is one of the prime directives when it comes to writing tax code. You pay rent, the landlord takes that money, but since a bunch of it goes for interest there is no tax paid on it. Why don't you get to deduct it ? Looking at it from a different angle shows that the situation is all fucked up.

A flat tax would not be ideal for some people. So what. With a flat tax you pay like ten percent or whatever, and it doesn't matter if you have no kids or ten kids, no houses or ten houses. You get used to it. And as it costs alot of people some money, that influences the market, some things are not affordable and therefore do not get sold. Supply and demand could operate as they should.

A capitalist system CAN actually work. Market forces are driven by a set of laws, just like scientific laws which are immutable. The problem is we have a bunch of cutthroat assholes all influencing the system to their own advantage.

Fix that, or forget about it. One day I will be dead, and you know what ? I'm fine with that. No kids, YOUR kids have to live with this shit, not mine.

YOU ALL know exactly how to fix this fucking country. It's quite simple - ELIMINATE CONFLICT OF INTEREST. The problem of course is in the implementation.

Empty out a jail and put all the politicians in there. When they exhibit behavior that indicates common sense,  give them some ice cream on Thursday.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 8/7/2011 4:22:53 PM >

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 4:29:22 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterG2kTR

The biggest budget deficits this nation has seen occurred under the GWB watch.



Wanna bet on either your false claim, or my correct statement that the budget deficit declined in his middle years until the 2008 economic crisis?

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 4:30:33 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

One minor error in the OP: Budget deficits declined in the GWB administration from the end of the 2001 recession until the economic problems in 2008.

The biggest problem in the OP is the characterization of SS and Medicare however. Yes, they are DESIGNED to be self-sustaining, but they arent. No long term budget solution that doesnt include changes to both of them is doomed to fail.

Streamlining the tax code and getting rid of the social engineering is obviously needed....combined with DECREASES in the top marginal rates and the cap gains tax. And any tax solutions MUST be long term, not temporary. The only way to jumpstart use of credit is (relative) certainty over the future. If fixes expire or are easily changed then nothing at all will work.


I really hate to burst your bubble, BUT Bush added over $4 trillion to the debt.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500803_162-4486228-500803.html  read it for yourself.



I hate to burst your bubble, but apparently you dont know the difference between "budget deficit" and "debt". Either that or your moving the goalposts from your OP.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 4:31:14 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		That is actually a very good post.  There are things that I would like to add as far as the ramifications of the things I questioned but all in all a very astute post. 

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 4:39:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		There was a time when all interest paid was deductible for individuals, it was one of the "loopholes" closed with the reduction in tax rates. Sales taxes were also deductible.

However, there is a level playing field between individual and corporations deductions for interest....if their purpose is to produce income they are deductible. Mortgage interest deductions level the playing field between landlords and homeowners. You seem to think there is a distinction.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 4:46:38 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The budget deficit climbed during the Bush years, and has continued to climb during the Obama administration.  So to blame one party is absurd.  Both parties are guilty.



Reagan turned the US from a creditor nation into a debtor nation. Clinton somewhat reduced the debt while the sun was shining. Bush started two stupid wars and reduced taxes. The economic crisis was inherited by Obama and was on an upward projectory. Yeah, he could have made cuts but cuts during a recession don't necessarily reduce the deficit and more than likely will increase it. So no, the decline of the American empire isn't down to both parties, it is down to the Republicans.

However, Americans don't like paying taxes so the deficit has to be reduced through cuts which is a little like trying to save a patient's mobility by amputating one limb at a time.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 4:49:28 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


Clinton somewhat reduced the debt while the sun was shining.


Clinton never reduced the total debt, never had a surplus (same thing). Clinton had a Republican congress when he came close to a surplus. Reagan had a lying Democrat congress that promised 3:1 spending cuts:tax increases and didnt deliver.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 4:50:36 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The budget deficit climbed during the Bush years, and has continued to climb during the Obama administration.  So to blame one party is absurd.  Both parties are guilty.



Reagan turned the US from a creditor nation into a debtor nation. Clinton somewhat reduced the debt while the sun was shining. Bush started two stupid wars and reduced taxes. The economic crisis was inherited by Obama and was on an upward projectory. Yeah, he could have made cuts but cuts during a recession don't necessarily reduce the deficit and more than likely will increase it. So no, the decline of the American empire isn't down to both parties, it is down to the Republicans.

However, Americans don't like paying taxes so the deficit has to be reduced through cuts which is a little like trying to save a patient's mobility by amputating one limb at a time.


Let's deal with this now, Meatcleaver and get it over with.  How much was the debt when Reagan took office and how much was it when he left?  Ok?  Answer that.  I know you have this little tag line that you like to use "Reagan turned this country from a creditor nation to a debtor nation...blah, blah, blah."  But the fact of the matter is that Reagan changed the world.  And even with you and every other lib singing Clinton's praises, the debt was higher under Clinton than it was under Reagan. 

Now try to focus on the issue, ok?  Who has raised the debt more in 30 months than any other president in history.  Answer that question, please and then we get on with what the thread is about.

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