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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 4:57:56 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		U.S. president Party Term years Start debt/GDP End debt/GDP Increase debt ($T) Increase debt/GDP
(in percentage points) House Control
(with # if
split during term) Senate Control
(with # if
split during term) Roosevelt/Truman D 1945–1949 117.5% 93.1% -0.01 -24.4% 79th D, 80th R 79th D, 80th R Harry Truman D 1949–1953 93.1% 71.4% 0.01 -21.7% D D Dwight Eisenhower R 1953–1957 71.4% 60.4% 0.01 -11.0% 83rd R, 84th D 83rd R, 84th D Dwight Eisenhower R 1957–1961 60.4% 55.2% 0.02 -5.2% D D Kennedy/Johnson D 1961–1965 55.2% 46.9% 0.03 -8.3% D D Lyndon Johnson D 1965–1969 46.9% 38.6% 0.04 -8.3% D D Richard Nixon R 1969–1973 38.6% 35.6% 0.10 -3.0% D D Nixon/Ford R 1973–1977 35.6% 35.8% 0.24 +0.2% D D Jimmy Carter D 1977–1981 35.8% 32.5% 0.29 -3.3% D D Ronald Reagan R 1981–1985 32.5% 43.8% 0.82 +11.3% D R Ronald Reagan R 1985–1989 43.8% 53.1% 1.05 +9.3% D 99th R, 100th D George H. W. Bush R 1989–1993 53.1% 66.1% 1.48 +13.0% D D Bill Clinton D 1993–1997 66.1% 65.4% 1.02 -0.7% 103rd D, 104th R 103rd D, 104th R Bill Clinton D 1997–2001 65.4% 56.4% 0.40 -9.0% R R George W. Bush R 2001–2005 56.4% 63.5% 2.14 +7.1% R 107th Split, 108 R George W. Bush R 2005–2009 63.5% 84.2% 3.97 +20.7% 109th R, 110th D 109th R, 110th D Barack Obama
D 2009– 84.2% 93.2% (2010) 1.65 (2010) +9.0% (2010) 111th D, 112th R

There are a bunch of charts but here is one.  Hey.....Meatcleaver.....are you paying attention???  During Reagan's first term, our debt was 32.5% when he started and 53.1% when he finished 8 YEARS LATER!!!  You sound like a young kid and you don't have any recollection of the Cold War and the global brinksmanship between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. but Reagan's presidency was a pretty amazing time.

Now...look at O'scumbag.  When he took office, our debt was 84.2%.  That is a huge and dangerous percentage, I will agree.  But by the end of 2010, it was 93.2% and now that we are mid way through 2011, the percentage is higher even still.

So...it is time for a new tag line, my friend.

DAMMIT!!!  It looked perfect until I hit OK.  You get the point and I will provide the cite if necessary.


< Message edited by lockedaway -- 8/7/2011 4:59:05 PM >

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:03:46 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The budget deficit climbed during the Bush years, and has continued to climb during the Obama administration.  So to blame one party is absurd.  Both parties are guilty.



Reagan turned the US from a creditor nation into a debtor nation. Clinton somewhat reduced the debt while the sun was shining. Bush started two stupid wars and reduced taxes. The economic crisis was inherited by Obama and was on an upward projectory. Yeah, he could have made cuts but cuts during a recession don't necessarily reduce the deficit and more than likely will increase it. So no, the decline of the American empire isn't down to both parties, it is down to the Republicans.

However, Americans don't like paying taxes so the deficit has to be reduced through cuts which is a little like trying to save a patient's mobility by amputating one limb at a time.


Let's deal with this now, Meatcleaver and get it over with.  How much was the debt when Reagan took office and how much was it when he left?  Ok?  Answer that.  I know you have this little tag line that you like to use "Reagan turned this country from a creditor nation to a debtor nation...blah, blah, blah."  But the fact of the matter is that Reagan changed the world.  And even with you and every other lib singing Clinton's praises, the debt was higher under Clinton than it was under Reagan. 

Now try to focus on the issue, ok?  Who has raised the debt more in 30 months than any other president in history.  Answer that question, please and then we get on with what the thread is about.



You call that diatribe dealing with an issue?

Reagan tripled the Gross Federal Debt, from $900 billion to $2.7 trillion. The US went from the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor nation. In fact look at any economic figures of the Reagan years and in reality they are pretty lame.

And no, only rightwingers believe Reagan changed the world, he just happened to be in power when the USSR eventually collapsed. It had been rotting from inside out since the war. As PJ O'Rourke commented, all the CIA had to sdo in the 70s (if the had the brains) was to send a couple of agents on a trip to Moscow and they would have found out the Russians couldn't organise a shopping trip, never mind a war.

Anyway, it was the hand up Reagans ass that was working his mouth, not his brain.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/7/2011 5:04:22 PM >

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:07:19 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Hey.....Meatcleaver.....are you paying attention??? 


Those figures are nicely chosen to look good but are fantasy because they are out of context.

GDP is a pretty pointless measure. All I have to do is give you a $1 for opening the door and then you give it back to me for holding the same door open for you and our (personal) GDP has been doubled without creating any wealth.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/7/2011 5:16:00 PM >

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:09:07 PM   
lockedaway


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The budget deficit climbed during the Bush years, and has continued to climb during the Obama administration.  So to blame one party is absurd.  Both parties are guilty.



Reagan turned the US from a creditor nation into a debtor nation. Clinton somewhat reduced the debt while the sun was shining. Bush started two stupid wars and reduced taxes. The economic crisis was inherited by Obama and was on an upward projectory. Yeah, he could have made cuts but cuts during a recession don't necessarily reduce the deficit and more than likely will increase it. So no, the decline of the American empire isn't down to both parties, it is down to the Republicans.

However, Americans don't like paying taxes so the deficit has to be reduced through cuts which is a little like trying to save a patient's mobility by amputating one limb at a time.


Let's deal with this now, Meatcleaver and get it over with.  How much was the debt when Reagan took office and how much was it when he left?  Ok?  Answer that.  I know you have this little tag line that you like to use "Reagan turned this country from a creditor nation to a debtor nation...blah, blah, blah."  But the fact of the matter is that Reagan changed the world.  And even with you and every other lib singing Clinton's praises, the debt was higher under Clinton than it was under Reagan. 

Now try to focus on the issue, ok?  Who has raised the debt more in 30 months than any other president in history.  Answer that question, please and then we get on with what the thread is about.



You call that diatribe dealing with an issue?

Reagan tripled the Gross Federal Debt, from $900 billion to $2.7 trillion. The US went from the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor nation. In fact look at any economic figures of the Reagan years and in reality they are pretty lame.

And no, only rightwingers believe Reagan changed the world, he just happened to be in power when the USSR eventually collapsed. It had been rotting from inside out since the war. As PJ O'Rourke commented, all the CIA had to sdo in the 70s (if the had the brains) was to send a couple of agents on a trip to Moscow and they would have found out the Russians couldn't organise a shopping trip, never mind a war.

Anyway, it was the hand up Reagans ass that was working his mouth, not his brain.


Wow...what fucking nonsense.  Yeah...the U.S.S.R. was collapsing.  Every idiot liberal on the board says that.  It doesn't matter that communism had, for the most part spread across the globe, that the U.S. had already been relegated to a second rate military power because of the S.A.L.T One treaty or that the asshole Carter damn near committed us to S.A.L.T. Two.  Nope....none of that means anything.  Right? 

The U.S. took the U.S.S.R. down just like Reagan said we could in 1954 if we dedicated ourselves to it.  It is fucking amazing how a man can make a pronouncement like that and then, under his watch, make it come true and still not get the credit.

All that aside, the debt was 2.7 trillion....big, motherfucking, deal.  Hey Meat....the debt is now 15 trillion and your boy O'scumbag bumped it up in a shorter period of time than any president before him.

Time for a new tag line....

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:09:40 PM   
MasterJaguar01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Clinton never reduced the total debt, never had a surplus (same thing).



This is a bit revisionist.

From the CBO and factcheck.org:



Here is the link from factcheck.org

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:11:07 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Hey.....Meatcleaver.....are you paying attention??? 


Those figures are nicely chosen to look good but are fantasy because they are out of context.


LMAO. No, its your memory that is out of context. Suggestions:

1. Learn who ultimately controls spending in the US.
2. Learn the difference between the total national debt and the public debt.

When you have that down come back and I'll give you your next lesson plan.



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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:13:01 PM   
Sanity


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Looking at that chart, it appears that deficits were going down when Clinton assumed office and that they were headed back up when he left office.


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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:14:46 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Wow...what fucking nonsense.  Yeah...the U.S.S.R. was collapsing.  Every idiot liberal on the board says that.  It doesn't matter that communism had, for the most part spread across the globe, that the U.S. had already been relegated to a second rate military power because of the S.A.L.T One treaty or that the asshole Carter damn near committed us to S.A.L.T. Two.  Nope....none of that means anything.  Right? 





You don't read do you? There are vast amounts of papers that came out of Moscow after the USSR's collapse to show you are just a paranoid rightwinger

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
The U.S. took the U.S.S.R. down just like Reagan said we could in 1954 if we dedicated ourselves to it.  It is fucking amazing how a man can make a pronouncement like that and then, under his watch, make it come true and still not get the credit.



No it didn't. It is that rightwing fantasy that has got the US into so many wars it couldn't win.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
All that aside, the debt was 2.7 trillion....big, motherfucking, deal.  Hey Meat....the debt is now 15 trillion and your boy O'scumbag bumped it up in a shorter period of time than any president before him.

Time for a new tag line....




The Republicans created the economic crisis.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:15:32 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
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Status: offline 		One may discuss in their kitchens how to solve these problems, but the reality is America has leadership and ideology problems. Without solving these, the discussions have very little meaning.

Consider the little essay by Justin Raimondo:

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/08/04/why-is-america-committing-suicide/

He writes, "We ordinary folk live in a completely different world than the movers and shakers of the Imperial City: no one outside the Beltway bubble can really understand the mental processes that allow for such a massive evasion of reality, a kind of collective madness that infects the ruling elite in this country, regardless of party. They talk down to the hoi polloi, and use a different language when they converse among themselves, but occasionally the truth comes out".

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:16:46 PM   
Fellow


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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:19:06 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Clinton never reduced the total debt, never had a surplus (same thing).



This is a bit revisionist.

From the CBO and factcheck.org:



Here is the link from factcheck.org

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/



tsk tsk. You didnt complete your lesson plan before you came back. Factcheck is basing its numbers on Public Debt, not Total Debt. Here are the real numbers:

National Debt Deficit
FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion


"As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the deficit was almost eliminated in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive surplus number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration."



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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:20:22 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/08/04/why-is-america-committing-suicide/



Compare the historic dynamics of other empires, their rise and fall, the US seems to be following the same dynamics.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:27:08 PM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The budget deficit climbed during the Bush years, and has continued to climb during the Obama administration.  So to blame one party is absurd.  Both parties are guilty.

The problem is the NO ONE can agree on how to solve the problem.

The Republicans are stuck on cutting spending, which admittedly needs to be done, but the programs that the Republicans want to cut are programs that should not be touched, such as social security, education, medicare etc.

The Democrats want to raise taxes, which makes sense, increase revenue to cover debts.  HOWEVER, Democrats seem to come up with spending programs that would offset the new revenues.

Now, from my point of view, it would seem that the logical way to proceed would be to increase taxes, primarily the corporate tax loopholes (how many big corporations got away with a zero tax liability?) and coming up with a tax code that does not need a PHD in Accounting to understand.

And while raising taxes, cut spending in areas where we over spend, such as Defense, and cutting agencies that have overlapping areas of responsibility.  In other words, and this is coming from a liberal, streamline the fucking government.

Social Security, as designed, is supposed to be self supporting, as is medicare, so leave that alone.  

The Education system in the United States is lacking, look at the ratings of US students versus other countries.

And if other countries are going to use protective tariffs to help their industries, the US should do the same to protect producers in the US.  In other words, the US should play by the same rules as other countries.

Finally, one question, how many countries besides the US maintains Military installations outside their borders?  I am sure we could bring the majority of our military back to the states and save a good percentage of the defense budget.



Completely focused on the wrong thing and buying the horse shit the republican tea bagger party is selling you. Fix unemployment, fix the debt.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 5:51:13 PM   
MasterJaguar01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

tsk tsk. You didnt complete your lesson plan before you came back. Factcheck is basing its numbers on Public Debt, not Total Debt. Here are the real numbers:

National Debt Deficit
FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion


"As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the deficit was almost eliminated in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive surplus number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration."



quote:

no year did the national debt go down



LOL... I think you have been reading too much Craig Steiner.


Geez.... What a hack.... "Total Debt".... sheesh


This "EXTRA Debt" he talks about is SURPLUS Social Security money used to buy Government bonds. To count it as debt is ridiculous. The money is surplus and could have been used to pay for anything. By law, it had to be used buy government securities.

This idiot was debunked years ago.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 6:52:24 PM   
MasterJaguar01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Fix unemployment, fix the debt.


This is exactly right. This surplus money from Social Security that by law had to be used to purchase government securities (that erroneously was counted by Mr. Steiner as debt) was a DIRECT result of the high employment rate under Bill Clinton




< Message edited by MasterJaguar01 -- 8/7/2011 6:53:03 PM >

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 8:21:47 PM   
MasterJaguar01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy



tsk tsk. You didnt complete your lesson plan before you came back. Factcheck is basing its numbers on Public Debt, not Total Debt. Here are the real numbers:

National Debt Deficit
FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion


"As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the deficit was almost eliminated in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive surplus number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration."





All this nonsense is really indicating is that Clinton's overall surplus was enabled by a Social Security surplus (the final amount that put us over the top into overall surplus territory), due to incredibly low unemployment and a bustling economy. The fact that the surplus money was lent (as required by law) to the general account is completely irrelevant. It is NOT debt owed by the US government to anyone. It is simply one cost center, borrowing from another (with SURPLUS funds I might add)

I hope that clears it up for you.

< Message edited by MasterJaguar01 -- 8/7/2011 8:22:41 PM >

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 8:22:49 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

tsk tsk. You didnt complete your lesson plan before you came back. Factcheck is basing its numbers on Public Debt, not Total Debt. Here are the real numbers:

National Debt Deficit
FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion


"As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the deficit was almost eliminated in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive surplus number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration."



quote:

no year did the national debt go down



LOL... I think you have been reading too much Craig Steiner.


Geez.... What a hack.... "Total Debt".... sheesh


This "EXTRA Debt" he talks about is SURPLUS Social Security money used to buy Government bonds. To count it as debt is ridiculous. The money is surplus and could have been used to pay for anything. By law, it had to be used buy government securities.

This idiot was debunked years ago.



Youre the only one debunked. The SS surplus used to buy bonds was SPENT, idiot. Thats why SPENDING was greater than non-SS revenues.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 8:36:40 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Afghanistan took down the soviets.They fell under their own weight.

bin-laden had more to do with it than Saint Ronnie.

And as far as communists go,Walmart and their republican supporters don`t seem to have any problems doing business with the Chinese communists.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 8:39:38 PM   
MasterJaguar01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Youre the only one debunked. The SS surplus used to buy bonds was SPENT, idiot. Thats why SPENDING was greater than non-SS revenues.


1) I called Steiner an idiot, not you. (Just an FYI...)
2) And yes it was spent, to the US government!

Perhaps an example would help:

Let's say I purchase an auto dealership. That auto dealership consists of three businesses:

1) The business that sells cars
2) An Auto Detail Shop
3) An Auto Repair Shop

Let us also say., that when I purchase the entire dealership, it is losing money overall. I turn around the car selling business to just about break even (up from having a huge deficit). The Auto Detail Shop is already profitable on its own, but I increase its profitability to generate a sizable surplus. I have an internal policy that overall, I want to grow the car selling business so I mandate that all Auto Detail surplus funds be lent to the car selling business. When I take the Balance Sheet as a whole, I have an overall surplus (thanks mainly to by turning around the car selling business, but also to the Auto Detail funds putting me over the top).

The funds are simply owed from my car selling business to my auto detail business, but are not a deficit for the overall dealership.

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RE: The deficit and what can be done about it. - 8/7/2011 8:51:51 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"This "EXTRA Debt" he talks about is SURPLUS Social Security money used to buy Government bonds. To count it as debt is ridiculous."

Bullshit. Insurance Cos are required to have X amount of capitalisation, they can't touch that money and if they do to pay claims, they must not write policies beyond their limit, which is based on that amount of capitalisation.

But the government saw that money sitting there and fucking took it. It must be paid back and as such I find it hard to fathom how someone could see that as NOT debt.

Of course Willie is going to have something to say, and probably throw in an insult or two at me, but fukit, that' CM.

The FACT is, they put their hand in the fucking cookie jar without permission. OUR COOKIE JAR.

Keep your powder dry.

T^T

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 40
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