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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 11:30:42 AM

hlen5

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ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

............I think you overestimate the range of a fixed-angle cctv camera.

hmmm, i thought they were all the pan tilt zoom kind of cameras?

Pan, tilt, and zoom wouldn't be possible on tape.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 11:31:49 AM

VaguelyCurious

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I've definitely seen footage from panning cctv cameras before. Dunno about tilt and zoom, though.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 11:37:45 AM

LadyConstanze

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ORIGINAL: CreepyStalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreepyStalker

IPCC report on the news at the moment - Duggan never drew a weapon, all shots (including the one in the officer's radio) were fired by the police. Carrying a gun in a sock is in no way enough of a crime to justify his killing.
(Also it's entirely possible the gun may have belonged to the taxi driver, it's not uncommon in that sort of area.)

We are talking about the innocent victim, the guy who has gangster poses all over the web, flash cars, lots of jewelry but coming from this poor estate and on his way home from work, only there isn't an employment record so far, the same guy who his friends call "elder" and who had a gun with him?

Yes, that same guy who did not attack the police or provoke them to shoot. You don't get to execute a person just because you've decided they're a baddie.

No but if he carried a gun and was a known gang leader, should the cops wait until he tries to kill them first? Would you feel better if he would have killed a cop before they shot him? Now if he didn't plan to kill anybody, why did he have a gun in his sock? I mean there are so many other things you can use guns for, I just seem to come up with no other reason than shooting at the moment. Do you think he might have had it for hunting, in the middle of London? There are also very strong laws regarding firearms in this country, if I was a cop and I would know some guy carries a gun, I would shoot if he'd make the wrong movement. What do you think are the chances that his firearm was an illegal one and why do you think he carried one with him?

I agree they should not have shot him, but I would be a bit interested in seeing the whole story, why they were following him, his police record, because it seems they had been watching him for quite a while. It's not like the Met police is driving round trying to execute people like in a bad movie, I'm pretty sure that the guys would rather have made a quick arrest. We could now start with theories that they shot him because they were involved in the crimes and worried about him talking, but we possibly both agree that it's BS.

What gets me is, that this guy was a known criminal, he was most likely a danger to the police, still no reason to just shoot, but how strange that he seems to be painted now as this upstanding member of the community who the evil police shot when he was nothing but a hard working boy...

I think there is a lot of dirt on both sides but everybody just seems to point at the police.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 11:52:29 AM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

I've definitely seen footage from panning cctv cameras before. Dunno about tilt and zoom, though.

Like your comment on fixed cctv views, I meant after the area or event is filmed, one couldn't change angles or tilt on the film. The panning footage you saw was either manipulated by someone observing the camera view in real time or it was programmed ahead of time.

Edited for clarity.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 8/9/2011 11:53:33 AM >

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 11:56:06 AM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

I've definitely seen footage from panning cctv cameras before. Dunno about tilt and zoom, though.

Like your comment on fixed cctv views, I meant after the area or event is filmed, one couldn't change angles or tilt on the film. The panning footage you saw was either manipulated by someone observing the camera view in real time or it was programmed ahead of time.

Edited for clarity.

Ah, gotcha.

Yeah, I meant pans programmed ahead of time. But even they give a much wider view of the street than fixed cameras. People have this idea that because there are a lot of cameras all angles must be covered, and that's not true. It's hard for anyone to walk through a city centre without showing up on several cameras, sure, but most of the actual space isn't covered.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 11:58:45 AM

frazzle

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I will disgagree, most people havent a clue who the person was who got killed, most of the people who've been out on the streets the last few nights dont even care. (Just to add, armed response units are not called out for nothing)

These are just opportunist thugs and criminals, most of which i doubt have ever read or seen a news bulletin. They have no political agenda, they just think they shoud have all the luxury items without bothering to work for them.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 12:02:07 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
But have it your way. You've convinced me. Stealing jeans from the Gap is a political statement. And Vaguely, glad to know you have a better class of thugs in the UK. That made me laugh, and frankly, doesn't surprise me. That accent always makes people sound smarter than they really are.

You'd sound a lot smarter yourself if you didn't seem to be convinced that every person in the riots is causing trouble for the same reasons. Politically motivated thugs/angry black people with a beef against the Met and looters after a free iPhone can quite happily exist in the same mob. The fact that a few posters here are taking it for granted this an either/or thing and you can't have both groups in the same barney is a bit depressing, really.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 12:13:49 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
Pan, tilt, and zoom wouldn't be possible on tape.

no, not on tape, all that stuff is digital now, all saved in hard drives.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 12:13:55 PM

LadyConstanze

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I think people who are carrying goods out of shops might be more interested in getting stuff for free (aka stealing) than they have a political motivation, like the comical guy who's "redistributing the wealth as an anarchist by stealing chocs and ice-cream" - the people rioting might have all different reasons, the looters? I think they have ONE reason and hiding amongst the rioters makes it easier for them to nick stuff.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 12:27:07 PM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: frazzle

I will disgagree, most people havent a clue who the person was who got killed, most of the people who've been out on the streets the last few nights dont even care.

Have you actually spoken with any of them?

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 12:28:18 PM

Moonhead

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That was my point. You get people who wouldn't have the balls to try shoplifting under normal circumstances turning up in every riot.
The fact that there's plenty of these cunts in the mobs of rampaging chavs doesn't mean that some of the others out causing trouble aren't politically motivated, though. It isn't like the Met have ever been noted for their enlightened attitude to race relations, after all.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 12:35:04 PM

Arpig

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quote:

You'd sound a lot smarter yourself if you didn't seem to be convinced that every person in the riots is causing trouble for the same reasons. Politically motivated thugs/angry black people with a beef against the Met and looters after a free iPhone can quite happily exist in the same mob. The fact that a few posters here are taking it for granted this an either/or thing and you can't have both groups in the same barney is a bit depressing, really.

Give it up Moonhead, those who want them to be thugs simply will not accept any other idea. It's important to them for some reason, I personally think it's a way of avoiding feeling any responsibility for the situation that led to such suppressed anger in the first place.

And to some, looting itself is a political act. To some of the "looters" it isn't about taking things so much as destroying things. Or symbolic acts, like distributing chocolate and ice cream to kids. And some see it not as stealing, but more as expropriating. Yes there are many who are just stealing, but they are not by any means all of them.

See that's the thing about anarchistic events, they are chaotic, they are not homogeneous, And these crowds ARE anarchists, maybe not proffessed anarchists, or intellectually anarchists, but they are definitely behaving like anarchists. Do you notice anything other than rejection of all authority, of laws, societal rules and moral codes? It's anarchy, and there is no type, only a mass of angry individualse, each with their own motivation.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 12:37:36 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Do you notice anything other than rejection of all authority, of laws, societal rules and moral codes? It's anarchy, and there is no type, only a mass of angry individualse, each with their own motivation.

That isn't actually anarchy (according to Kropotkin and Bukanin at least). No argument with the rest, though.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 12:42:22 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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quote:

Have you actually spoken with any of them?

Hanners has.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 12:47:14 PM

SillyMan

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ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

Have you actually spoken with any of them?
Hanners has.

does she sign, the ones Im aware of can barely speak.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 1:09:56 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
It's anarchy, and there is no type, only a mass of angry individualse, each with their own motivation.

And while some are arguing that it's all political, others are arguing that it's not all political. Not all of the looters are in it to make a statement. I'd wager a guess that many are being opportunists, and most are just angry and that was their outlet - it was a personal thing. I say this as a result of witnessing the Rodney King riots some years ago in California. I say witness because I was actually there about 15-30 minutes before it exploded into a riot. Those people brewing in the streets were pissed off without an outlet. So they wreaked havoc. It was not a planned thing. It was not a "let's get the political message out" thing. It began as an explosion of anger, followed by opportunists who realized they could tear through every shop and nothing would be done about it.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 1:15:14 PM

Arpig

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quote:

And while some are arguing that it's all political,

I haven't seen anybody do that, sorry. Could you point me in the right direction.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 1:16:30 PM

LadyConstanze

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

And to some, looting itself is a political act. To some of the "looters" it isn't about taking things so much as destroying things. Or symbolic acts, like distributing chocolate and ice cream to kids. And some see it not as stealing, but more as expropriating. Yes there are many who are just stealing, but they are not by any means all of them.

Uhhh yeah, the want the biggest flat screen they can carry out of the shop to watch political discussions on... And the guy with the sweets claiming he's an anarchist, where on earth did you find that he was distributing chocolate and ice cream to kids? Because I didn't see that anywhere, I would be quite surprised if there were kids around the mob.

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 1:18:41 PM

Moonhead

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He was probably thinking of the Angry Brigade protest in Selfridges* in the early '70s as a model when he heard an ice cream van had been done over.

*(I think. Might have been one of the other big department stores in London.)

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RE: roiting in croydon and penge - 8/9/2011 1:21:05 PM

SillyMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

And to some, looting itself is a political act. To some of the "looters" it isn't about taking things so much as destroying things. Or symbolic acts, like distributing chocolate and ice cream to kids. And some see it not as stealing, but more as expropriating. Yes there are many who are just stealing, but they are not by any means all of them.

Uhhh yeah, the want the biggest flat screen they can carry out of the shop to watch political discussions on... And the guy with the sweets claiming he's an anarchist, where on earth did you find that he was distributing chocolate and ice cream to kids? Because I didn't see that anywhere, I would be quite surprised if there were kids around the mob.